Warning nip

[BCFan]

Hello,

 

I am new to the board so I apologize if this subject has already been covered (point me to the thread?).

 

We have a well trained and well behaved BC pet (not a farm worker), but he just bit/nipped a daughter's 13 yr friend on the forearm. He is well socialized with both people and other dogs, and is all smiles.

 

However in this instance, our BC was sleeping/resting in his favorite bathroom and the girl saw a cute fluffy dog and went in to pet him. He was startled, yelped and gave her a warning bite. It bruised her but did not bleed. I realize this might have been a startle situation, which might be hard to correct. But the behavior appears in other distinct situations.

 

He often does not like to be pet while lying down (or hugged), and our family knows to give him a command first in those situations. For example, if he is lying down and we pet him too much or get in his face, we will first see some concern in his eyes, then maybe the start of a snarl. We know that if we keep it up a warning snap may follow. If we then give him a command to stand or come, he is all wags and wants pets. But we cannot always control or teach visitors how to approach him.

 

Other than being keeping him always separated from visitors (new or familiar), does anyone have ideas to train him out of using his teeth as a warning in these situations?

 

We contacted a local vet behaviorist, highly recommended by another vet, but have not yet had the appointment. I am also interested in hearing your advice.

 

Thanks!

[painted_ponies]

Can you give us a little background on the dog, please? What age, neutered or not, how long you've had him, etc. If you haven't had him since he was a baby, what was/were his former home(s) like? If you got him as a baby puppy, can you tell us about his breeder? What about his parents/other dogs from his lines - what are their temperaments like? Have you talked to his breeder about this behavior?

 

Sorry to answer a question with a question, but it's hard to answer without more information. Welcome to the boards, BTW.

[PSmitty]

Has he always been like this, or is it a new behavior?

 

I agree that your dog was startled by the 13 year old. Not only that, but you already know he doesn't like to be petted while laying down, so this was a double whammy for the dog. I know it's hard to be everywhere at once, but it's your job to "protect" your dog from unwanted advances, if you want to look at it like that.

 

I think this definitely bears more looking into, but I also would like to point out that some dogs just *do not* enjoy being petted (and especially hugged---that's a very domineering posture to take with a dog, actually). If you know your dog has limitations in this regard, it would be nice to respect that. I'm not a behaviorist, and I'm sure yours will be able to help. If it were me, and I was unable to supervise him with visitors, then yes, I would keep him separate.

 

Good luck.

[PSmitty]

Oh, I also wanted to ask if he's had a vet check? It could be that he's painful somewhere, if this is a newer behavior. Also, a thyroid check might be in order, since an off-kilter thyroid can affect behavior in different ways, like making the dog irritable, for example.

[BCFan]

Sure,

 

He is 4 years old, had him from a puppy. He was neutered at 6-9 months. He was bred from a private line of working farm BCs. He has two siblings, one died (horse kick). The other we don't know much about except that he, like ours, is nervous in the car (salivates, throws up if fed prior to traveling).

 

The mother is very confident and in control of her surroundings and everyone in it.

 

Ours had the least herding instinct of the three. He is a little (not overly) submissive and somewhat timid.

 

He is obsessively ball-motivated, and enjoys jobs including fetching balls, sticks, frisbees, work around the house (waking the kids up, finding named toys, soccer goalie, tricks, etc., and placing balls in the direct path of any human work being done). His favorite is to place balls in the lawn mower path just so I have to move them.

[BCFan]

PSmitty,

 

I agree with all that you've said. The behavior is not new, but he has never made contact before. So I don't think it's a medical thing - he was in for shots, etc. last September.

[OurBoys]

BCFan,

 

Welcome to the boards!

 

When was the last time he had his eyes checked? I also agree with the thyroid check. A visit to a chiropractor might help.

[OurBoys]

"So I don't think it's a medical thing - he was in for shots, etc. last September."

 

But did they check his thyroid? They usually don't unless you specifically ask them to.

[BCFan]

I'll check.

[bc4pack]

May I inquire where you are at or which vet behaviorist you have the appt with?

If this aggression is rather sudden a thyroid check is definitely something to do

and sometimes in house tests may not pick up minor imbalances...

 

Have you done any counterconditioning/ desensitization as far as vehicles?

 

There are TONS of dogs that do not like folks 'looming over', many, if not most,

find it very rude and VERY scarey.

 

Talk to the vet behaviorist first. We wouldn't want to suggest anything contradictory,

after all none of us have seen your dog.

 

Snap. Leave me alone! Snap. Leave me alone! Bite.

Can definitely have a cumulative effect... if he feels he's giving warnings that HE

perceives as being ignored...

 

 

 

You can do counterconditioning with visitors but in the meantime manage the situation.

You can tell kids to 'let sleeping dogs lie'. You can have your dog go to his crate

when guests are in the house (less stressful for the dog).....

[BCFan]

Thanks! I'd rather not name the behaviorist. It just gives someone a chance to disparage him (most would not but you never know). I have a trustworthy recommendation from a relative who is a vet. The two worked together in the past in veterinary research at a major university. And I liked what he had to say during our first phone conversation (realistic, practical, and seems to have a philosophy aligned with ours).

I'll ask him about the thyroid.

 

As for the vehicles, we tried to add short trips for fun activities (one block to play ball or ski jor). He is best if we do not feed him first and if he rides in the front passenger seat - lucky him! Or at least in the second seat with the kids. But he will ride in the back. A crate, while physically safe, created more problems. We have also tried to play ball in and out of the Yukon's open back door, but he doesn't "get it" and won't play. He is is "trip mode" in the car. For very long trips of more that 3 hours, we use Dramamine. It's manageable.

 

I appreciate all the responses.

[sweet_ceana]

Did he growl or give a warning before the nip? Ceana has some aggression issues and she will warn before she uses her teeth. She also postures her head down and back when she is done being touched.

[AK dog doc]

I agree with wanting to make sure you have the appropriate health checks and also see the behaviorist (good start on your part so far)... but my first thought was that, if *I* were sleeping peacefully in my own house, and a stranger came up to me and woke me out of a sound sleep by patting, snuggling or otherwise handling me in my bed, I think I might want to bite them, too. Kind of an invasion of personal space and boundaries. I would consider this fairly rude behavior from a stranger toward my dogs, actually; generally I wake my dogs with a spoken word to avoid what seems to me to be the rude and excessive startlement of being physically jostled awake, PARTICULARLY if they are in their own beds or favorite nap spots. If my dogs are sleeping on my bed with me, I may inadvertantly wake them by rolling over, but just as often they seem to be dead asleep and don't move at all even if I do (apart from which they know it's MY bed, not theirs, so they are on it only through my good graces and they had best be mannerly). Some mornings it would require a fork lift to get them off the blankets - unless I suggest something interesting, such as "Outside?" or words of that nature.

 

The thing where your dog gets growly with family while being petted may have to do with feeling overwhelmed (if he's submissive and already lying down - a submissive posture to begin with - and yet he's still being "pressured" [from his point of view, I mean, not from your intentions], maybe he just doesn't know what else to do to let you know he's uncomfortable and is already being submissive, so doesn't know what more to do in that situation.) Also, while it's more common in cats, I do occasionally see a dog who seems to get so physically stimulated (in a sensory mode, I mean, not an over-active/running-around one) that they get nippy because they're unable to handle all the sensory overload and they sort of mentally short-circuit into nippy behavior because they can't shake themsleves out of the sensory loop enough to think it through. Just a thought. I'm sure a boarded behaviorist wil have better ideas than I do, but maybe that's some food for thought while you're waiting to get in. I agree that biting behavior needs to be addressed, regardless.

[Beth G]

... but my first thought was that, if *I* were sleeping peacefully in my own house, and a stranger came up to me and woke me out of a sound sleep by patting, snuggling or otherwise handling me in my bed, I think I might want to bite them, too. Kind of an invasion of personal space and boundaries. I would consider this fairly rude behavior from a stranger toward my dogs, actually; generally I wake my dogs with a spoken word to avoid what seems to me to be the rude and excessive startlement of being physically jostled awake, PARTICULARLY if they are in their own beds or favorite nap spots.

 

 

 

The thing where your dog gets growly with family while being petted may have to do with feeling overwhelmed (if he's submissive and already lying down - a submissive posture to begin with - and yet he's still being "pressured" [from his point of view, I mean, not from your intentions], maybe he just doesn't know what else to do to let you know he's uncomfortable and is already being submissive, so doesn't know what more to do in that situation.) Also, while it's more common in cats, I do occasionally see a dog who seems to get so physically stimulated (in a sensory mode, I mean, not an over-active/running-around one) that they get nippy because they're unable to handle all the sensory overload and they sort of mentally short-circuit into nippy behavior because they can't shake themsleves out of the sensory loop enough to think it through. Just a thought. I'm sure a boarded behaviorist wil have better ideas than I do, but maybe that's some food for thought while you're waiting to get in. I agree that biting behavior needs to be addressed, regardless.

 

 

Exactly what I was going to say.

 

P.S.

Popcorn used to hate car rides too, but after every ride ending up somewhere fun (going to the park )and me chanting "Good boy!" or "Let's go play ball!" All the way there he has long ago lost his car nervousness...lol.

[BCFan]

Thank you for all your replies, they are all appreciated. But what I am really looking for and I might not have explained this well, is specific ideas on how (if possible) to:

 

1. desensitize our BC to being pet when when he does not want to be pet; and

2. train him not to use his teeth to give messages.

 

Agreed that this may be rude, but we cannot guarantee other people's actions 100 percent of the time. We want to reduce chances of a future mistake in some very narrow circumstances. He is a great, happy and friendly dog - and well behaved. Neighbors refuse to believe me when I say I don't trust him completely. Like all dogs, he loves human interaction.

 

So, picture this scenerio:

 

1. I pet him while he is lying down and see the first sign of a sneer

2. Normally at this point I would leave him be, after recognizing his signs to be left alone. But this may reinforce the behavior since sneering was successful and accepted.

3. At this very point (sign of a sneer) what should my response be?

 

Does anyone have any further step-by-step ideas? Also, then do I later extend your advice to daring strangers?

 

I am not looking for advice on isolating him, because I can implement that as part of the solution as the case may be. In the case that he is not isolated, an obvious solution would be to instruct all strangers/visitors either not to pet him at all, not to pet him while he is lying or sleeping, or to issue a command first such as STAND, COME etc. before engaging him.

 

Thanks again!

[OurBoys]

"But this may reinforce the behavior since sneering was successful and accepted."

 

IMO this should only happen if it's a dominance issue. Once you eliminate anything medical, I feel the behaviorist should be able to tell you if he is exercising his dominance or he just feels over-whelmed and reacts.

[PSmitty]

I don't know. Personally, I would respect the dog's wishes to not have petting forced upon him.

 

I mean, yes, your stopping petting him when he "sneers" is the idea. He is giving you a warning, and it's best to heed it. I just don't get making him accept what is clearly uncomfortable to him. *shrug* I wouldn't want to train him not to give that warning, how else can he communicate?

 

And again, you are responsible for what happens to your dog. It's your job to make sure that if you want him left alone by visitors, that he is left alone. And if people ignore your warnings to leave the dog alone and get a growl, sneer or nip, then they've gotten what they asked for. I understand the liability issue of a dog bite, though, and therefore I would not have him interact with company, unless someone responsible is right there to monitor the situation.

 

I'm sure the best place to get better advice though, is from the behaviorist. Good luck.

[BCFan]

I agree with the responsibility statement. The lack of specific tips is also helpful. It tells me that there is no well-known, quick fix training method that we have somehow missed. I am getting a better idea of what is realistic and what is not. I am looking forward to the behaviorist - but he is booked out several weeks so we must wait. I don't want to give the idea that he is a mean dog. He is precisely the opposite!

[painted_ponies]

The lack of specific tips is also helpful. It tells me that there is no well-known, quick fix training method that we have somehow missed.

 

I think you're dealing with a bit of a fear-biter, for which there is no quick fix. I'd think of the solution as being closer to therapy than training. You're doing the right thing seeking the help of a behaviorist. In the meantime, though, it would be wise to keep strangers from pressuring him beyond what he can handle.

[Journey]

I agree with the responsibility statement. The lack of specific tips is also helpful. It tells me that there is no well-known, quick fix training method that we have somehow missed. I am getting a better idea of what is realistic and what is not. I am looking forward to the behaviorist - but he is booked out several weeks so we must wait. I don't want to give the idea that he is a mean dog. He is precisely the opposite!

 

There are no "quick fix training methods" when training a dog. From all you've written aside from the medical checks I would have to say the dog is just overwhelmed and feeling too much pressure in certain situations. Not aggression per se but almost fear. If I read your post right I would say he had good cause to be alarmed and the only defense the dogs have is their teeth - fight or flight, he had no where to go. Good luck with the behaviorist.

 

Car sickness - have you tried Jelly Beans or Ginger Snaps? I have seen them turn dogs around incredibly and within a short period of time they no longer got anxious in the car!

 

Karen

[Guest WoobiesMom]

Ok, I'm not an expert by any means at all. But perhaps in the meantime while you're waiting for the appointment w/the behaviorist you could give him a crate rather than a bathroom to sleep in. We had to train both our dog and our family that his crate was his den and his sacred space, not to ever be disturbed. It gave our Airedale a safe place to get away from pesky kids, somewhere to put him during visits from dog-fearful visitors, and taught our children that even dogs need to have their space respected.

 

You could put him in the crate and give him a stay or close the door. Teach the kids not to talk to him, look at him or otherwise go near the crate and bother him. That helps to teach him that when he's in there he's not bothered. Leave the door open when he's out and about in the house and he can retreat to there if he wants to. When you see him sleeping around the house, relocate him. Make him come and put him in the crate so he starts to associate that as his place to sleep. Then, teach the kids to call him to them and put him in a sit before they pet him and limit the petting to one child at a time and make sure you're there to supervise and watch for any signs of discomfort on the dog's part.

 

Hope that helps as a start. I honestly think it's irresponsible to expect a sleeping dog to have no reaction if disturbed while sleeping and is suddenly physically approached by a non-family member. If you were napping on the sofa and your child had a friend come over that came up and started touching you and got in your face to greet you, at a minimum, you'd be perturbed. Kids have to be trained too. Call the dog first, have it come, then you can pet it. The dog is awake and aware and knows what's coming, feels less vulnerable and the opportunity for aggressive response is reduced.

 

My .02, your mileage may vary.

[HighDesertSpice]

Not much more to say other than my gut reaction is that that your expectations as described seem a tad stringent. Kids don't always approach dogs in appropriate ways...some dogs are incredibly tolerant of this while others aren't--especially if the dog is sleeping. Many people also don't approach dogs in appropriate ways and again some dogs are incredibly tolerant. I like the thought of giving your dog her/his place, ie a crate. 'Trust you'll work it out reasonably.

[Beth G]

I agree that it's too much to ever expect a sleeping dog to tolerate being petted by a stranger.

 

My two don't even want to be petted by a stranger when they are awake, unless they make the first move and check the person out thoroughly beforehand.

Otherwise they will duck away and act aloof until they have made their decision by sniffing the person out first.

 

Popcorn has a STRONG dislike of little people getting in his face with the eye to eye thing. When kids kneel down and try to talk to him that way, first he will look away, then back away and then if cornered growl (fearful resonses) and seriously, I don't doubt he would snap if uncomfortable or fearful enough. As he has had a bad experience with a child squeezing him and causing him to pee himself.

 

I just don't put him in those situations and don't expect him to put up with being forced to endure them because personally, I don't think that it is fair and I think that it is asking too much of him. But I do work on trying to reverse his view of kids. As he is so good with my son I know we can get there.

 

Now if a small child wants to pet him I put him in sit, hold him and let them pet him,praising him the whole time.

He likes it and now wags his tail at kids approaching.

 

My plan is to at least get him to tolerate the children. But I will never force them on him. I want him to think it is mostly his idea...lol.. I get better results that way.

[OurBoys]

WoobiesMom, Excellent point/idea. HighDesertSpice is correct. All dogs need their own space. When Jake picks on JJ too much, he'll just get up and go to his crate. Even Jake knows he's not to bother him when he does that.

 

BCFan, Maybe you can put a "Do Not Disturb" sign on his crate so you kid's friends will know to leave him alone as well.

[MickeyDogs]

I think it's interesting that he only objects if he's lying down. BCFan, am I right that he doesn't like being petted by anyone, you and your family included, if he's lying down and whether or not he's sleeping? Does he object at any other time?