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Guest borderlineinsane
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Guest borderlineinsane

Ok, I'm having a bit of problem with my young dog, Whip, in novice. We've been successful, relatively speaking- well, penning is difficult, but I read your response to Tim and I'm going to try to implement some of your suggestions next time we practice. The only problem we have with the novice course is speed- Whip is extremely fast- on his outrun, on his fetch, etc. He's usually pretty straight on his fetch, once he almost knocked me off my feet at the post, but they were knee knocker sheep and he was really straight on his fetch that day. It's hard to control him and get him to keep the sheep off me as we move from the post to the pen, but usually, once we get there, Whip really gets those sheep into the pen quick. How can I get Whip to slow down? I don't want to keep using a down, because I was told that was a crutch and I want to train Whip right. He's 2 and a half now and I thought he would have slowed down by now.

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Guest Penny Tose

Tell me the following:

1) What does Whip's outrun look like? Is he slicing in back? Will he stop at

the top?

 

2) How far does he go at home on the outrun reliably with a nice shape, plenty of room in back, and a stop if asked? Will he down for you on the

fetch or take time when you ask him at home?

 

3) Does he leave well from your feet or do you have to get up in the middle to insure that the top looks good? Do you have to get up in the middle to stop him?

 

4) Can you get a nice pace at home when you are close to him and either

walking around with the sheep or driving?

 

I am asking these questions because the answers will give me some kind of

idea where you and your dog are in terms of training and being a team...also

because it will give me a clue about how to answer.

 

Sometimes I have dogs that I throw up my hands and use a down with for pace. Okay, mostly I

have dogs like that.

 

Getting the pace naturally without a down is much better and much

harder. It's especially much harder if you have set a pattern the other way.

 

I would not expect a 2 1/2 year old dog to have slowed down.

 

Penny

 

<small>[ January 27, 2005, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: Penny ]</small>

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Guest Penny Tose

I have been trying to recall if I know more than a handful of people whose first dog in novice did not slam sheep down the field at least in the beginning. Offhand, I can't recall many. There are some though, particularly the golden ones that went straight on through novice to open and others as well. I sure didn't have one. I gazed with longing eyes at the border collies that listened. I didn't want those dogs. I wanted mine to listen like those dogs. Never happened.

 

I think time, ruthless imposition on the good nature and patience of several great trainers, and more tractable dogs down the road made the difference.

 

For me and I'm willing to bet for many people, the key to getting a reasonably paced fetch with a dog that likes to rush sheep is a good outrun with plenty of room behind, a stop at the top, then maybe either another stop or a good steady as the dog moves up if the depth at the top is sufficient to warrant it, and another stop or reliable steady as the sheep react or move off (unless your dog has a controlled, good lift before rushing which is unlikely given what you said). The outrun and lift control the run at all levels of trialing and do so notably in novice where the course and time are shorter.

 

To avoid getting a dog that starts to stick at the top, vary things. First you never stop the dog (you've probably already been there), then for a couple weeks to a month always stop the dog, then go back and forth in each training session.

 

Stampeding sheep down the field is not a fault that is power related. Strong dogs like to do it; some weak dogs who underestimate their own power seem to believe that they have to stampede the sheep in order to get them going. Most dogs like to do it a lot until they discover that magical control distance for eye to kick in and as eye kicks in, pace does. Even then, they enjoy gonzo fetches.

 

If you can keep the dog back enough for eye to kick in, you have a better chance to artificially control pace and even a (hey this would be ideal) chance of natural pace asserting itself. Sometimes when I do this with one of my dogs whose sense of straightness has more to do with the shortest distance between zig and zag rather than the straightest approach from the set-out to me, I will end up off-line as pausing or downing the dog gives the sheep a chance to move right or left. Your dog by your description does not have this difficulty, thank goodness. It takes more skill than I have with most dogs to get good pace without a passel of downs.

 

Another thing that helps me control pace on the fetch is driving. Walking along to one side and then staying still and with the dog cross-driving.

 

You might want to remember that every now and then after you have control of your dog, a fast fetch at your direction is also worth having. Don't worry about it for now. I think you have that part down cold.

 

Penny

 

<small>[ January 28, 2005, 08:24 PM: Message edited by: Penny ]</small>

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Guest borderlineinsane

I have trouble determining if Whip is on the right track in his outrun, because the sheep take off toward me when he reaches about ten o'clock. Even with corn to hold them. I can lay Whip down, but it involves some serious threatening on my part and he'll still trot about three or four steps before he hits ground zero. And by then the sheep are halfway to me and a walk up means "BLAST OFF!" to Whip. I haven't done so much mutton bustin' since I was five. So it's "away"- BLAST OFF! Lie Down! LIE DOWN! Ok, walk up...BLAST OFF! Lie down! Walk up...BLAST OFF! How do we get that nice calm walk up I see on other dogs and cannot find on my Speed Demon? I'm thinking of changing Whip's name to Buck Rogers of the 21st Century.

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