Guest Sharon S. Posted August 5, 2004 Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 Hi Lori, I'm relatively new to herding and have a 2 year old BC that has worked livestock for a total of only 40 hours starting at 6 months old. (We have to drive up to 6 hours each time we rent stock). My dog is very willing, obedient and gentle dog (has never gripped in his life) who has excellent balance and is showing talent at driving, but who has absolutely NO natural outrun: even a rounded 50' outrun is a struggle for him. I know that many dogs come in flat at the end of their outruns, but this is a somewhat different story, as you'll see... I would love to hear your advice on how I might eradicate the problem that I've created! Until recently, our only access to livestock was in a small arena or round pen--with VERY heavy pygmy goats and occasionally heavy sheep. We didn't have a set out person, so every outrun was to stock that were pressed against the opposite fence. My dog quickly developed the habit of doing a flat outrun ending at the fence right next to the stock, at about 10 o'clock. The knee-knocker stock would then leave the fence and trot over to me. If the stock didn't hustle toward me when he arrived, he would gallop between the fence and the stock and peel them off that way. This being my first BC puppy, I was thrilled that he had invented a way to get the stock off the fence. I spent all my energy widening his outrun up to the 10 o'clock point, and none worrying about how he was rehearsing "blasting past the sheep" during the "lift" portion. Starting this past spring, we began working in an open field with lighter sheep, hoping to work towards Nov-Nov. But my dog is still acting like they're against a fence. Until I eradicate this problem, we're doing 50 yard outruns or less, and I stand between him and the sheep. I'm careful to step off to the opposite side of his flank, to reduce pressure. But he consistently gets to about 10 o'clock, then blasts sideways and sweeps past about 1" from the sheep's tails, as if trying to peel them off a non-existent fence. Needless to say, this causes the "non knee-knocker" stock to gallop down the field with my dog in hot pursuit. At a clinic, I was told that I should widen him in mid-outrun by screaming bloody murder and running toward him with my crook whenever he started to come in. So I did that for several months, but he only ran faster and tighter and eventually became almost impossible to "down" at that point. (He normally has a nice down). He also became less certain about doing outruns at all, and will now occasionally go to about 9 o'clock and refuse to finish the outrun without encouragement. Other advice has been to run through the stock and yell...but he either views this as a life-or-death race and blasts past before I can get there, or stops his outrun prematurely, afraid of being yelled at when he meets up with me. At another clinic, I was told to down him when he started to turn in, and do a "daisy chain." He'll do daisy chains forever, but the moment I actually DO give him permission to continue past the 10 o'clock point without "downing," he'll still blast in behind the stock. I got ducks a couple of weeks ago, hoping to fix this problem through daily practice. But he does the same "blast past" at the end of his outrun on the ducks, too. We've daisy chained and I've done the yelling thing over and over, and if anything he's getting worse. This is a dog that REALLY wants to do the right thing and I don't think he's just blasting them for "fun". I'm pretty sure he's convinced that this *IS* how outruns are supposed to be--maybe based on being praised 10,572 times for peeling stock off the fence! As a result, this 2 year old dog has never ONCE in his life done a traditional outrun ending waaay behind the stock, with a "down" and a separate lift. I'm sure he has no idea what this would feel like, and I'd love to set up a situation where he can see how "nice" it is! I would appreciate any advice you have on this topic. Thanks! Sharon Savage Columbia, MO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lori Posted August 9, 2004 Report Share Posted August 9, 2004 Hi Sharon- I'm just back from a trials weekend in Canada...will post a reply tomorrow! Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lori Posted August 10, 2004 Report Share Posted August 10, 2004 Sharon- OK...hope I'm caught up on sleep enough to be somewhat coherent! Thanks for providing a lot of good information, though, it's always hard to try to offer advice without being about to see the dog. As you obviously know, one of the big problems you're facing is your limited access to sheep. The old "rule of thumb" that's thrown around is that you need to work a dog three times a week to "maintain" and five times a week to "improve". With limited access, it's going to be hard to get consistency in breaking this outrun pattern. You might want to consider sending your dog to a respected trainer who can work the dog frequently and correctly for a couple months to have the outrun re-trained. If this isn't something you're willing to consider, here are a few thoughts: Frequently, dogs that blast in once they are within a certain distance of the sheep are not comfortable being close to stock. Novice trainers can mistake this for enthusiam and think it's a good thing, but it's usually a sign of insecurity. The "blast" is the dog's way of popping the sheep away to get them back to the dog's comfort zone of distance. If you have access to a small area, I would go back to a small pen (don't ever think of going to a small area as a step backwards!!) and make sure that you can get the dog to stay a consistent distance off the stock as he circles them. If the sheep are against the fence, insist that your dog maintain good pace and control when he goes between the stock and fence to bring them off. Essentially, you are re-training the bad habit he formed when you started training him. Given you'll be in a small area, you'll be very close to the action & that will give your dog more confidence and also put you in a good spot for well timed correction. As soon as the sheep begin to comeoff the fence, lie your dog down and let the sheep drift off, even if only a short distance. Don't allow him to over flank at all. Stay calm and quiet and be reassuring. While you're working in the small pen, make sure his flanks are nice and square. Five or ten minutes of good quiet control in both directions is probably enough. You will likely notice that he'll get more jazzed if you over work it. (This is another problem with limited sheep access. If you are renting stock time, there is, understandably, the motivation to get your money's worth in sheep time. However, many times, you will accomplish more working for several very short sessions like this, esp. when you're working on a tension problem.) When you see your dog getting comfortable with being close to the stock and moving them off the fence properly, and you're ready to take him back to a bigger field to try a little outrun, lie him down and tell him to stay put and then you walk to the sheep as close as you can get. Keep it small, twenty or thirty yards to start. Face him, step off line, and flank him. As he approaches the sheep (and you), step away from him and start backing off. This will free up the pressure of him feeling like the sheep are going to be "sandwiched" between you and him. If he gets buzzy at all, lie him down, make sure he gives you one of those small flanks you've been practicing (!) and send him on. This is alot like the "daisy chains" you mentioned, but it will help if you give it time and stay consistent. Hope that helps! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sharon S. Posted August 11, 2004 Report Share Posted August 11, 2004 Hi Lori, Thanks for your help! I really appreciate it. What a coincidence that you advised using a round pen, as I just spent the weekend building a pen like this for my ducks to "free range in" during the day. I'll try working my dog in there with the ducks for a few minutes each day to get him more comfortable being close to stock--he blasts in on them just like with sheep. We normally work the ducks in my 2-acre unfenced front yard. Also, a cattle dog [bC] trainer an hour from here has just bought five sheep, so I will be able to go there once a week to rent stock "on the hoof." With only five, though, they're sure to get heavy fast! I'd love to be able to work sheep daily--or better yet send the dog to a trainer--but it's all I can do to afford gas and stock rental once a week. I added it up, and in a year and a half, <50 hours of practice has cost $4000, incl. stock rental + gas + equipment + ducks + their pen. And this for a dog that can't do a reliable 50' outrun! In retrospect, it would have been better to spend that money on a trainer, but now that I've gotten to the point I really need one, I don't have any $$$ left. So it's great to have some expert advice through you and LittleHats. At least now that we got ducks a few weeks ago, my dog is able to practice daily on SOMETHING. I've already noticed that working 10 min. a day with the ducks has given him visible improvement in his outruns. Though he is still uncomfortable with "away to me" and flattens a lot on that side, his "go by" flank is getting pretty decent. On the 100' outruns allowed by my front yard, he is ending about 10' behind the ducks, which is a huge improvement. I'm now sending "away" about 4 times for every 1 "go by." By the way... now that we're working in my front yard, I've noticed he does a lot better when he has obstacles--like trees, hose reels, etc.--to go around--he seems to use these as guides to widen his outrun. When we work in a part of the yard with no trees, he is much flatter. But if there's a tree 50' to my right, he will swoop around that during his "away". Should I encourage this, or is it a crutch that will be hard to get away from later? Thanks for your help! Sharon Savage Columbia, MO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lori Posted August 11, 2004 Report Share Posted August 11, 2004 Hi Sharon- Glad to hear there will be sheep a little closer, I'm sure you'll see more progress with more work. About the obstacles in your yard, I don't think they matter much. At least your dog is being thoughtful enough to go around them. Don't forget to do your practice outruns from several different directions and angles. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sharon S. Posted August 11, 2004 Report Share Posted August 11, 2004 Thanks Lori, I'm enjoying all your great advice, both for my problem and for others in this forum. It's so nice to have some expert help. :-) Sharon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.