losing and getting back

[Guest GDavis]

It has been explained to me several times that often in the course of training, one must accept the fact that something will be lost during the process of gaining something else, and "you'll just have to get it back later".

 

My dog & I are in the early stages of training on sheep. Right from the beginning, if there was a breakaway, my dog was right on it and had it back. Oftentimes she anticipated so well that it didn't even have time to separate far from the group before she controlled it. Even the occasional goat mixed with the flock wasn't allowed to wander off. Also, she would go a long way to fetch the sheep. But she also did several "young dog" things, slashing in too tight, sometimes chasing around too much, the occasional wool nip, etc. So the person working with us said that it was time to "get into her head" and make her realize it was supposed to be a team effort and she needed to listen. Sounds correct to me, even though I'm sure part of the reason my dog ran things out there is because she knew that I didn't have a clue what I was doing.

 

Anyway.....the process of "getting into her head" was accomplished. She listens well now, and it's both of us out there working together. But the process seems to have introduced some self-doubt into my dog, and taken away some instincts that I admired and thought were good qualities -- specifically those I mentioned above. Now when there's a breakaway, she hesitates and looks confused for a moment, then stays with me & the larger group, and I have to walk us toward the breakaway(s), then she'll get them. And the distance she is willing to fetch or outrun without me has reduced drastically. She will stop and look back, turn around and come back to me, etc., no matter what I do to encourage her. Until I actually walk to within her "comfort zone", she won't go out herself to fetch them. (Oddly enough, as I described long ago in another thread, when left on her own while us humans are sitting and chatting, she seems willing to go a long way to fetch them.)

 

Can you suggest any activities or exercises we can do to try and recover these things she lost? We don't get out much, and I'm not in a hurry.

 

Thank you.

[Guest aurdank]

No doubt she's lost some confidence, probably because of excessive pressure being applied in getting her to listen. The general approach I try to take is to intervene to correct the dog when s/he goes wrong, but basically to let him or her work off of its natural inclinations. I like to use the steady command on the fetch for instance because this allows the dog to read its sheep independently as well as to pace properly; only when the sheep start going off line might I intervene with a flank command. Thee is a difference between handling intervention to help and micro-managing the run.

 

I'd recommend going back to basic balance exercises: walk-abouts, in which the dog fetches to you at short range while you mix up walking back with frequent sharp turns, first to the left then the right etc., mixing these up so the dog doesn't anticipate which turn is coming next. These turns should also be as square as possible: so, walk back, turn to the left by squaring military style, walk directly back again, turn suddenly to the right in the same way, etc. This should stimulate her balance instinct. Try to minimize stops; use "there" when she turns in,or to turn her in, or "steady" to keep a pace. If you must stop her, use a stand, not a lie-down.

 

After a while, you can then try to set up a situation where the sheep will break to some draw, say a holding pen area. Put them on hay to hold them; set up your dog at a moderate distance from them and stand yourself between dog and sheep. This is really a big flank which you can gradually turn into an outrun with the dog leaving from your side. When the dog nears the sheep, say at 10 O'clock, step in and raise your crook to insure that she gets around them wide. Then stop or steady her at the top and have her walk on with you retreating a bit, so that she can fetch. When the sheep break, remain silent. if she doesn't react, the next time say "shhh" or some such sound that will get her going without actually comannding her. Maybe say her name. Hopefully she'll start covering on her own. You can then start increasing the distance gradually between the dog and the sheep and between you and the sheep too, as you move closer to the dog. Eventually you'll be at a good distance from the sheep, and so close to the dog, that you can turn around and send her from your side.

 

The key to this outrun exercise is to try to avoid stopping her. By your stepping in at the right moment, while she's on the run, you'll have applied just the right amount of pressure to remind her to widen out, and this will also stimulate her natural instinct to read the sheep on the gather. Obviously one wants the dog to listen, but by stopping a young dog too frequently, you risk taking its confidence away and rendering it mechanical. Sometimes it's better to give the young dog its head, let it get away with small things, but intervene lightly to make corrections. One has to establish the right balance between obedience and independence.

 

Now if the dog is driving and is looking back alot and not going as far as you think she might, you can do parallel drive exercises. Just walk along side of the dog as she drives, so that she can see you and take confidence from that. Gradually widen the distance between you and the dog and gradually drop back as you increase the length of the drive. Although we tend to stop the dog alot in driving because of the need to keep lines, here you'll want to just keep her "steady" intead, with a take-time as much as possible, and not worry so much about lines (that you do later when her confidence comes back).

 

You can also try lots of free-flanking exercises, where you're keeping the dog moving continuously around the sheep such that she is contstantly balancing and reading her sheep with as much natural instinct as possible.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Albion

[Guest GDavis]

Thank you very much for your reply, it helps alot to have some specific exercises to work on.

 

Good balance adjustments have never been a problem for us -- except Kate tends to gradually get "inside her bubble" while walking about & practicing, which has made me use "stand" & "lie down" more than I want to -- so I've been using a "there" or "right there" for walking up on balance on bubble, and she takes well to this. She is much wider on her fetches than she was when we first began -- due in large part to the very exercise you mentioned. She is also pacing much better these days -- has better pace I mean.

 

We don't get many opportunities to work or practice, but when we do I usually do some reinforcement on the basics you mentioned, and now I will also try the other things to lengthen the fetch/outrun.

 

One of the things I have told people who are just starting out in herding with their dog(s) is to try to form some sort of idea of what your own philosophy about it all is, because then you have a better chance of not getting influences you might rather not have. I know now that I lean toward a more natural, non-mechanical, non-constant yelling, unhurried approach, which would have been good for my dog in the early stages -- but I was mostly just a bystander then. Things have gotten much better since we have had a few opportunities where it was just me & her on the field. But I can see those couple of things that were lost. I am (slowly) becoming a better handler too, and that is helping.

 

I have one more request for advice or clarification. I understand what you mean by the "steady" or "easy" command, to get the dog to slow down, pace, read the sheep, etc. I've heard people use "take time" also. What I've had trouble with is getting my dog to understand what I mean by the command. Any suggestions on this?

 

Thanks again for a very helpful and instructive response.

[Guest aurdank]

It's natural to tend toward overcontrolling the dog when you're first starting out, and it would seem that this tendency was reinforced by those who advised you. I don't believe in taking anything out of the dog that you want there as a matter of principle; otherwise it becomes very difficult to reintroduce it. And this especially applies to the dog's confidence.

 

On the walk-abouts, if the dog seems excessively wide, this is not due to the nature of the exercise; if anything, the exercise encourages close work. It may be that your sheep are on the lighter side, and the dog is simply rating its stock and keeping the right distance. Or it may be that you've pushed the dog off of its stock (another thing beginners are errouneously encouraged to do), in which case it may be having difficulty now coming on. Or it may be feeling pressure from your own physical presence, because it may see you as the source of excessive pressure, and it is keeping its distance. You have to try to encourage it to come on, if the sheep are not light, by using a sweet voice and pleasant sounding encouragement.

 

I introduce the take-time command using voice and whistle commands interchangeably. It's really a variation on the stand or stop command. I'd start from a stand and tell the dog to walk up slowly. This you do by actually saying "walk up" in a slow drawn out way and using a low tone of voice; the same with the whistle version. If the dog doesn't start slowly, stop it again and repeat the command in the same tone. When she starts slowly, say "steady" or "take-time", while allowing her to continue in this mode, and she'll begin to associate this command with starting slowly and continuing slowly. I have two whistle versions of this command. One is a hollow sounding version of the stop, which I use while she's walking slowly to encourage her to stay in the same mode; the other is the stop command but with a small upturn in the last note. The dog starts to stop, then hears the upturn on the last note and then falls forward, but slowly. This I use to slow the dog when it is moving fast. By repeating the command, the dog learns it. If the dog continues to push after the command is given, make it stand and start it again slowly. Use the stand to make a correction, in other words.

 

Best wishes,

 

Albion

[Guest DeltaBluez Tess]

One thing I have noticed with students who come out for lessons is that the relationship of the dog and their owner. I see quite a bit of the time where the dog does not respect the owner and as a result the dog does as they please.

 

One student now has come up in leaps and bounds once that relationship was established. Her dog does not go in for *drive by gripping* anymore once she took control.

 

Matter of fact, she works well with her dog now and it is a joy to watch.

 

Diane Pagel

Carnation, WA

[Guest aurdank]

Yes, often that's true, because the dog is usually indulged at home and when stimulated by the presence of sheep, it knows that it won't be seriously corrected. But sometimes excessive random gripping may be the product of the dog's insecurity rather than disobedience or the desire to be dominant, and so it is important to diagnose accurately why the dog is behaving the way it is before applying corrections.

 

Best wishes,

 

Albion

[Guest GDavis]

Thank you Albion for your responses.

 

I realize that everyone has different goals, and everyone is on different timetables that they have to accomplish those goals, so I appreciate you taking the time to be our expert.

[Guest aurdank]

You're welcome, Glenn; am happy to oblige. Hope I've been able to help.

 

Albion