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Guest kimkathan

"that'll do" coming off the field

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Guest kimkathan

Looks like we need another posting, so here's one. The same young dog (now 16 months) Is working well, learning quick, and wants to work(too much). The problem I'm having is this, she doesn't like to come compleatly off the field. She'll come to you, an walk to the gate, when you are opening it, she'll go to circle and bring the sheep to me. I used to call her to me and then slip a rope through her collar she'd walk off fine with me. I've gone a couple of times to a gentelman for some lessons/tips. He doesn't want me to leash her at all, if she goes to circle the sheep, he has me get in front of her and not let her work, and repet the process of calling her to me and walking to the gate. It takes about 5-10 min. but eventually she'll come off. This is 5-10 min of NOT letting her work, but getting in front and bringing her to me. This doesn't seem to be working that well in my opinion, but he's great at helping with the other things. Her breeder recomends doing a dominance roll...what's you opinion on this situation?

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Guest aurdank

Her reluctance to come off is not disobedience, but keeness to work. I'd do just as the gentleman recommended, except that I have no problem in leashing her once she comes. I do this at trials, actually, after the last phase of work is completed, because it means that we can get off the trial course without fuss and quickly too. At home when this happens, I have the dog bring the sheep to me, and I stand between her and the sheep but in a place not far from the gate; so that as I call her off ("that'll do, come or come to me")I walk toward the gate. I tap the side of my leg as I say this too. So not only am I blocking her from the sheep, I am walking and asking her to follow. You need also to use emphasis in your voice and gestures to show firmness. But really if it's taking as much time as you say when she should be taking a liesson, I wouldn't scruple to put on the leash? What's the big deal really? It doesn't mean that she is rendered incapable of obeying off-leash. It's just convenient at that moment.

 

I'm not sure what a "disobeidence roll" is but if it means giving her a shake to get her to listen, I wouldn't do it; it can take her confidence away and hurt your working relationship. Just firmness, to make sure she knows who the authority is, and placing a leash on her at the end is actually one way to inscribe this on her mind.

 

amu

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Guest kimkathan

The roll is a dominance roll, not a disobediance roll. It's like the pack instinct. (With her supposedly seeing me as the pack leader) You walk up to the dog quietly and calmly with out saying anything and roll them over onto their backs, "growling" in a I COULD do something if you don't listen. It's like replicating the pack pecking order similar to a pack of wolves/dogs when one of them steps out of line.

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Guest kheilenm

There is quite a bit written about why one should NOT do a "dominance" roll and I, for one, am convinced that there are better ways to establish/rebuild a relationship.

 

The most convincing argument for me comes from people who work with wolves (and this "roll" purports to imitate wofl behavior). Careful observation has shown that what actually happens is that the submissive animal volunteers a "roll over" (shows its belly). Other wolves do NOT roll over other wolves; they *accept* the behavior offered by another wolf.

 

This means that instead of communicating with our dogs in our way they understand, instead, we are scaring them to death by acting in a way that they can only interpret as bizarre and very, very frightening.

 

Just my several cents! (and I see nothing wrong in grabbing a leash and using it to avoid a "discussion" that (for the dog) is based in a desire to work. In fact, I'd worry that "rolling" the dog in this instance might be interpereted by the dog as "don't go out there near those wooly things cause your owner goes crazy" :rolleyes:

 

Kathy

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Guest aurdank

Thanks for that info about the "dominance roll". I'd agree with Kathy here. One of the things I do with my young dogs is separate them if I think one is becoming too dominant over another. This may be part of the natural pecking order, but in my experience it encourages meekness in the submissive one, which can translate into tentativeness around stock. They should always be encouraged to feel bold, whether on or off stock as a way of promoting confidence. Naturally of course you want them to obey you, but you must also balance this with giving them their freedom to take the initiative occasionally. The dog learns to accept your authority in the context of work. You gain its respect by showing competence in handling it properly around stock. That's really the key.

Albion

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Guest SoloRiver

I'm coming rather late to this conversation, but would it help to have the dog drag a long line, so that you could just go and stand on it when the dog refuses to come? Eventually she'll probably give up and come, without any overt confrontation or coercion that might harm the working relationship.

 

I have one dog who sometimes becomes frantic when called off the sheep. He'll run back a little, then sort of freak out, turn, and bust the sheep up, sometimes gripping. Two things have helped me deal with this: having him on a long line when we enter the field and starting by driving on the long line. I'll call him off occasionally while we do this (and can enforce the recall by standing on the long line), praise and then reward by allowing him to walk up on the sheep again. This way he gets used to being called off. The other thing is calling him off a few times at the end of the session and immediately sending him on another outrun when he complies. Since he is sometimes rewarded for recalling by getting to go back to the sheep, he is much more enthusiastic about calling off.

 

I would never alpha roll a dog. It's a practice that was popularized by the Monks of New Skete in one of their early training books that is based on a flawed understanding of "pack behavior." The Monks have since recanted, and advise people not to roll their dogs. Newer versions of their books reflect this change, but the practice still won't seem to die. It seems to be most popular among obedience trainers who use force/coercion methods to train their dogs, as opposed to play/reward methods.

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Guest aurdank

When I take a young dog to a field after it has been working in a round pen, and I'm not yet certain I can call it off there (even if I can in the round pen), I'll kep a long line on it, but only as insurance, in case my coaxing fails to work and we really need to quit. Eventually, when the dog gets the idea, the long line comes off. I don't believe that the dog should be called off in a work session and then returned to work, in other words as part of the working session's routine, particularly on driving, as this will tend to discourage the dog from concentrating or focusing on its stock in work and will tend therefore to encourage it to look back to the handler too much. And in this way it will tend to weaken the dog. The dog might also develop a habit, if it is called off frequently, especially with the use of a long line, of going only so far in its drive before it stops in anticpation of getting called off. This will make it more difficult to get the dog to drive longer distances eventually. The call off should mean one thing only: the work session is over.

 

Albion

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