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Outrun/Lift-Fetch, continued (sort of)...


Guest GDavis
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Guest GDavis

I'd like to follow up on the outrun topic from a week or so ago, the query & responses were very helpful for me. And Diana, I hope you will update us on your progress, what you tried, what worked, etc., and also on the "Fetch" thread. Or email me if you'd rather. It just sounds like I've had some similar experiences & problems to work on, although I'm sure I'm on a more beginner's level than you, but I'd love to hear what worked for you. Thanks.

 

Okay, I should probably give a little background of what training Kate (& myself) has been like so far. I wasn't able to take her to sheep until she was 2 years old. Since that time (1½ years now) she's only been to sheep 20 times. It's only the last 3 times that it's been just me & my dog & the sheep. All the other times were lesson or clinic settings.

 

Right from the start Kate was keen to work and showed some good qualities and good power. Her second time out she was wearing the sheep nicely down the field behind me. Of course, young dog tendencies would kick in now and again -- getting bored and wanting to create excitement, etc. But she did everything without hesitation or doubt in the beginning. She would immediately run down and bring back breakaways. Her fifth time out was on a flock of about 50 sheep and some goats, instead of just the 3 to 6 sheep she'd worked with before. No problem, she was on it without the slightest hesitation, stayed out wide and controlled them nicely, no diving in or scattering, and when a goat tried to turn on her and face her down, she got him to change his mind very quickly and rejoin the flock, without nipping or gripping.

 

Left to orchestrate training on my own, with my own stock, I would probably fall into the category of a "minimalist" -- I would want to take a lot of time just letting the dog (& myself) get a feel for the stock & the work. I wouldn't worry about alot of commands or control at first, or for quite awhile probably. But when you depend upon others for lessons & stock, it is natural that they will influence the directions that things take. They have their own philosophies, their own ideas, etc. So it's a trade-off -- my dog gets to work stock, but maybe everything won't be exactly as I would do it. It can be a tough call to make. Which is worse -- to leave your dog without the opportunities to get to work, or to accept some influences that may not be exactly what you would choose on your own?

 

Anyway........the only command I made sure I had on Kate was a solid recall, before we ever went to stock. As things went along, it was obvious that I needed to get a good "lie down" on her, or at least a "check up/slow down/stop" -- I didn't really care if her belly was on the ground. But some of the people helping me thought it was important that she LIE DOWN when told to lie down, so that was forced to happen, through a variety of methods. No biggie. I was also told that my dog was just on her own agenda, and even if she was doing the right things, it was important that we "get into her head" and make her listen and obey immediately when commanded. I don't question the advice of people that know alot more than I do -- but I think I would have given her more time to just feel things out for herself, and would probably structure my correction ladder according to my own ideas and pace, and my own feel for my dog. But like I say, it's a trade-off of sorts, and things have taken their course.

 

The point I find us at now is a mixture of good & bad, of progressions & digressions -- I guess it always is, huh? It's obvious that the "getting into her head" stage had the effect of causing her to listen better and realize that it's a team activity, but -- it also had the effect of causing her to doubt her instincts, doubt her feel for what to do in some circumstances. Like bringing back breakaways. As I said, when we first began, she was on breakaways so fast that hardly a beat was missed in whatever we were doing. After the heavy-handed stage, she would start to bring them back then stop and just kind of stand there lost between the flock and the breakaways, looking at me or whoever was working her to tell her what to do. The same thing happened on fetches. When we first began, Kate would go quite a distance to initially fetch the sheep, a very respectable distance for a beginner I think. Since "getting into her head", she wouldn't go 50 yards without stopping and turning back to see if it was okay.

 

I should mention that both of these things have started to improve and go back the other way our last few times out, when it's been just me & her on the field.

 

In the other thread about Outrun I told about Kate doing some work kind of "on her own", doing some really nice things with lift & fetch. My last two times out I have re-created the situations, and she will do the same thing -- she will go down the field straight at the sheep, then before her pressure starts them doing anything she will turn out wide and around, very calm & controlled, and lift them beautifully and bring them to me. We'll do "walkabouts" a bit, then I'll call her off and set up a short fetch, and when I send her, she's right back to fast & tight, not quite slashing. So I'll let the sheep wander further away and not say anything, and again she'll do the prettiest lift & fetch you could want. And again, if I set her up for a fetch, she'll go back to too fast & too tight. Not always, sometimes she'll stay out nice & wide when I send her. But if I leave her to her own, or send her from further away, she always does it right, stays wide when she needs to.

 

There's another change that's happened through our 20 times on stock. At the beginning, if Kate had to go down a field to fetch some sheep, she would run. That's why it's called an "outrun" I guess. Now, when she goes down and does these nice lifts & fetches, she does more of an "outwalk" or "outcreep". How do we work on adding the "run" back into the mix?

 

I should mention that I haven't begun working on commands yet, other than a recall, lie down, & "right there", which I'm using to get her to stay at a proper distance on walkups. She'll stop wearing back & forth, she takes to staying on balance well, but she tends to get inside her bubble and not stay back far enough, and I don't like to always have to lie her down to get the distance.

 

Overall, Kate has learned some good things in her time on stock so far. At first, she could not get anywhere close to the sheep without them getting really agitated. Now she seems to have learned whatever trick it is that they can "turn down the power", as she's able to work close without them freaking out if she wants to. And still make them climb all over each other from across the field if she wants to. So I guess that's good. Also, quite often now she will slow up on a fetch at the correct time, or lie down, on her own, where before she would always run me over with the sheep unless I gave a command. So I think in some ways she is getting more of a feel for things, and I'm sure she would progress rapidly if I could get her out more often. Twenty times in 18 months is not very often. But she has done very well at remembering what she learns, and we usually pick up right where we left off.

 

I know there's not many specific questions for you in here, but you had such enlightening things to say after I posted in that other thread, I guess I'm hoping that if I describe our brief herding history in more detail like this, it will help you to have more of a feel for where we are at now, and how we should proceed from here. I love just hearing your reactions and your "thinking out loud", so any thoughts are much appreciated.

 

Thank you.

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Guest BelgBC
Originally posted by Glenn Davis:

<<In the other thread about Outrun I told about Kate doing some work kind of "on her own", doing some really nice things with lift & fetch. My last two times out I have re-created the situations, and she will do the same thing -- she will go down the field straight at the sheep, then before her pressure starts them doing anything she will turn out wide and around, very calm & controlled, and lift them beautifully and bring them to me. We'll do "walkabouts" a bit, then I'll call her off and set up a short fetch, and when I send her, she's right back to fast & tight, not quite slashing. So I'll let the sheep wander further away and not say anything, and again she'll do the prettiest lift & fetch you could want. And again, if I set her up for a fetch, she'll go back to too fast & too tight.>>

I would be very interested to hear Carol's response to this 'on her own' part, because I have seen the same thing with one of my dogs. My older dog (not the one I was talking about in the outrun post) does the same as Glenn's dog. If I tell him to do an outrun, he's very fast, very tight, almost frantic looking, and I think not a lot of thought is going on. But then I noticed at the end of a lesson, when I was leaving the field and would give a 'that'll do', he'd circle back on more time and pick up the sheep (I used to joke that he wanted me to take them home with us), and it was the most beautiful outrun, lift, and fetch you could ask for. Now I know he should not be blowing off my 'that'll do' that way (he doesn't do that anymore), but it was just an interesting observation that when he did things on his own he really did know what needed to be done, but when I tell him to do something he thinks I must want him to do it as fast as possible. So there must be something I was doing that was giving him the wrong message, or putting too much pressure on him, or otherwise interfering with his ability to do it right.

 

Similar thing with my younger dog when walking up on the sheep. Sometimes he doesn't seem quite sure - he'll drive with his head sort of up, and almost like he's trying to pretend he's not looking at the sheep, and he'll fetch too fast and do some bouncing back and forth and excessive wearing. However, I noticed lots of times, when we first came on the field, if he could see the sheep, he'd drop his head down and sink his body down into a classic BC crouch, and walk up on the sheep nice and careful. So I'd stand there and not say a word and he'd balance them straight and take them at a nice walk all the way across the field. Perfect pace, little balancing movements with his head, the whole thing just like how I'd like him to work. Then if I call him off and tell him to walk up, it's right back to his upright posture and pretending he's not really looking at them, and not really covering them to keep them straight. The last few times I've let him start on his own like that, then just very quietly told him 'walk' and fallen in behind him, giving a quiet command now and then, and then he'll work really nice for me. Is it bad to let him do this? And why does this happen? I hope this is okay to ask this here on Glenn's thread, since it's a similar question. Just wanted to say I have seen the same thing, so it doesn't seem to be just some quirk of Glenn's dog. If I understood the reason for it, that might be something I could use in training to get better work from my dogs.

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Guest GDavis

It's definitely okay with me for you to post related questions here Diana. I actually think it's multiple answerers that Heather was requesting we avoid, as this is where we come to get advice from one specific person, the current expert-in-residence. My only concern is how much work we're creating for Carol :rolleyes: . But I would think combining such closely-related issues as you & I have here would actually be more efficient and make answering easier, with the possible added benefit of covering more ground and reaching a broader range of folk & problems.

 

I think the thing you described that happens after you call your dog off is interesting, I've seen it quite a bit even in my limited experience, and not just with me & my dog. I think one of the responses made reference to it also. Often it happens while you're working on something too, they'll do it wrong, so you'll call 'em off to start fresh, only to see that they'd just begun to do it right -- but it's too late, you just called 'em off. :D .

 

Now that Kate has begun to learn how to adjust power levels, she more often employs the "classic" postures & creeps & stuff, but I think is still essentially an upright worker.

 

I apologize to all for being so long-winded lately. We're moving and the computer will be packed very soon, and I'll be stuck with my spaz fingers trying to type on a laptop, so -- I guess I'm trying to cram alot in before that happens.

 

Sorry....................

 

<small>[ August 10, 2003, 01:21 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Davis ]</small>

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Guest Carol Campion

I love reading this thread. I do not have time tonight to give it the attention it deserves. I will answer it tomorrow!!

 

Goodnight guys!

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Guest Carol Campion

Gosh

 

There is so much to address here in these recent posts that I am sure I will forget to touch on some aspect of it. Forgive me if I do and just ask a particular thing again.

 

Firstly, Glen, your little bitch sounds like the type of BC that many are wishing to own. From your description, I gather that she is pretty natural, has some good stock sense and is a team player showing that she is very interested in pleasing you! Possibly people might like knowing what her background breeding is.

 

My feelings about dog training have changed (for the better) over the years, especially since we bought a bigger farm about 6 years ago. Since then, I have had real need for a working dog and it has molded my feelings for how these dogs need to work and how I can in turn to mold them.

 

I like a dog that has enough natural in him that I do not need to tell it every move to make, but one that is willing to take a command when given. I have found that temperament & breeding have as much to do with this as training!

 

Glen, you will find that as you travel the road to training your dog, you will probably do some contradictory things. What you may need to do one month, will be detrimental the next. That is because your dog's concepts are developing and changing all the time as are yours!

 

Let me address the issue of taking some of the natural away by mistake.

 

As I am training a dog, if I notice any natural ability, like the ability to cover breaking stock, seems to be diminishing, I stop and reapproach the subject from some other angle so as to preserve that ability. To me, what I want is for my dog to be able to use as much of those qualities as possible and to interfere with them is the opposite of what I want for my end product. All those abilities are what makes a Border Collie what it is so they need nuturing.

 

But you ask, what about obedience?

 

I will school a dog on different elements, but always try to work it into something where they need to use their own initiative. That way I can proof it against the work I really need done. For instance, you do need a stop on your dog. It is a fundamental element in training and to me it is VERY important—not so I can rely on stopping my dog everytime something gets out of hand allowing me to think, but so I can stop the dog from learning something the wrong way.

 

But in demanding a stop, if I saw that my dog was no longer taking the initiative to cover breaking sheep, I would continue to do some schooling for stopping in a situation that did not cause the dog to lose its sheep, but I would also have the sheep occasionally brought up to a fence with the dog so the sheep would want to break. Then I could encourage the dog to cover breakng sheep. See! I am always working on freeing up some of the things I am putting under control!

 

If my dog started "walking " an outrun, I would bring everything up closer to see at what distance the dog out"runs" again. I would try to go through the steps to see if I could figure out where the "problem" began.

 

Sometimes we create problems by putting words to a behavior on the dogs part that is not the finished product. We forget that these dogs do not speak English and that they have no idea what we are saying to them. They are merely associating a sound from us with a behavior. For example, if everytime a dog went in to grip, someone screamed "That'll do" and was not effective in calling the dog off or stopping the dog from gripping, it would not be too long before the dog would start gripping on "That'll do". There are countless examples of this type of mistaken learning n the part of these dogs. You need to be careful what you are teaching your dog because they are learning things you are not intending them to learn!! You need to be vigilant as to what behavior he is associating with what command. It is hard to change a behavior once established.

 

Also, I try not to say a command unless I want to make sure it is done. You can unlearn many a command by giving it and then not having the dog do it. When I take my dogs out, I do some "free" work—work that doesn't require a lot of commanding—and then some real schooling. I mix them both up.

 

Let me address the issue of different trainers.

 

A lot of people have successful methods of training dogs. But keep in mind that their knowledge will be developed from the types of dogs they have trained. An some people are only successful in training certain types. If you go to a clinic and you know something someone asks you to do is going to be harmful to your dog, don't do it. But be open minded and go home and try some of the methods. If they don't work for you, try to adapt the method to your dogs temperament. Try to see the end goal. But tuck the info away. It could be your dog is not ready for something yet and may be later.

 

Everybody has a different method of learning successfully and for some it is watching, for others it is doing and for others it is from reading & studying!!

 

Dianah, I'll address your concerns tomorrow!!

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