Guest Kathy Posted July 29, 2003 Report Share Posted July 29, 2003 Hi- I have a question in regards to a very pushy dog that I have. He is always pushing too hard on the sheep and then is not able to cover them. Especially in a wide open area without the constraints of a fence. I know that he is having a hard time with the concept of walking slow/steady. He wants to trot up on the sheep, and lets face it I can't walk that fast ANd I don't think that I should have to. :roll: It happened again at a trial this past weekend. He was pushing too hard and then the sheep moved off of him and he wasn't able to cover and lost them. I'd appreciate any advice. Thanks, Kathy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Carol Campion Posted August 1, 2003 Report Share Posted August 1, 2003 <<I have a question in regards to a very pushy dog that I have. He is always pushing too hard on the sheep and then is not able to cover them. Especially in a wide open area without the constraints of a fence. I know that he is having a hard time with the concept of walking slow/steady.>> Hi Kathy I guess to give you the best answer I can, I need to know more. Can you describe in more detail what you mean by "pushing"? That might give me a better idea of why he/she is not covering sheep properly. It could be that he has not properly developed a feel for sheep at all or it could be something as simple as just getting him to stop (lie down) long enough for he sheep to relax, move off of him and get out of panic mode. So can you elaborate a little more for me? What is your dog like at home? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Kathy Posted August 1, 2003 Report Share Posted August 1, 2003 Hi Carol- Sorry, I should have been more detailed in my first post. He is the same way at home. Jag is a 3 1/2 year old male. He pushes the sheep hard and then ends up having to over flank to cover at all. This is in a smaller area so the sheep don't go too far as they know they can't get far. Also, my sheep know me and will stick with me more. By pushing, I guess I mean that he puts too much pressure on the sheep so they start to "panic" and move apart. Once that happens and when he doesn't back off, then they will split. It is like he wants to work too close and he has too much "presense" to work that close. It is frustrating cuz when I ask him to walk up, if he would come at a steady pace things would be fine, but he has to trot up at the sheep when then makes them move too fast. >>It could be that he has not properly developed a feel for sheep at all or it could be something as simple as just getting him to stop (lie down) long enough for he sheep to relax, move off of him and get out of panic mode. << I have tried laying him down, only to have him move up too fast when I ask him to walk up again. I would like him to learn where he needs to be without my having to lie him down all the time. I have been working with an off/out command, but so far it hasn't worked very well. This is all in fetching, I have just been starting him on driving this summer. I have wondered if it would help him if I would go out into an area on my place that isn't fenced and in a sense "force" him to have to find the correct point to be at that doesn't panic the sheep?? It is frustrating as he can be a very nice working dog, yet he hasn't been showing it. :roll: Thanks for your help and please let me know what other information you would like from me. Kathy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Carol Campion Posted August 2, 2003 Report Share Posted August 2, 2003 Hi Kathy Without seeing the situation, my intition tells me that this is more than a problem of just too close but one of not feeling sheep correctly exaggerated by splitting sheep. You don't mention what kind of sheep you are using and much about what they are like? Do they ever encourage this unwanted behavior from him? A dog that is "boring" into his sheep is not feeling the group and is just coming forward with no thought as to the whole. Then when they split it will give him something to do to maybe put them back together or else maybe get in a chase? Developing his distance from the sheep will help keep the group together and help him see the whole picture. Some dogs learn this by you getting between the sheep and the dog and telling it off so it understands that it is your space to be there and that they are your sheep. Some other dogs learn better by being stopped and you making their contact by asking him up so far and lying him down again. A combination of the two works well with lying him down as a method of showing him what you want and then physically getting after him between he & the sheep as a correction to use as well. The trick for both of these is that when you ask him up, make sure you are on balance. Also make sure there is room between you and the sheep otherwise the balance point is not clear. It also gives him somewhere to take the sheep to—gives him somework. Ask him up and if he rushes to get up to the place up close where he wants to be, lie him down. It is a little boring for you as trainer, but the message is "You are not allowed to fetch these sheep if you are rushing to get up and if you are getting too close". Ask him up based on the sheep's behavior so he will learn that they stay grouped if he puts the right pressure. If you hold him down too long, they may split or stop as well! Once he starts getting up slowly, as long as he is coming slowly, let him come on. YOU MUST KEEP MOVING THOUGH! Otherwise everything backs up and there is no balance point and it is boring again. Start saying or whistling a "slow-pace" command when he is doing it properly. If he speeds up, stop him. Eventually , you will be able to ask him up with the pace command. I would do this all in a controlled area til you know he is on the same page with you and has got it. Then take him to a field where the he and the sheep have more freedom. See if you can get the same behavior there and then offer him flightier sheep & situations and have your goal to be finding the proper distance for him to work based on the sheep. You can encourage him to hold sheep together rather than split them by putting sheep along a fence. Ask him to walk up til they start to bust and encourage him to flank to keep them tucked in. This will help him realize what to do when sheep split. Put a command to it like "Watch them" or "Hold them". Don't let him come in and grip. You want to encourage lateral flanks that help him cover sheep. Also, try to let him figure out where to be rather than you telling him/flanking him where to be. Once he gets the idea, then you can take this to the open and it should help him figure out where to be. If there is someone knowledgeable near you that can watch the dynamics in person, that would be of great value in diagnosing further! It will be VERY BORING for you to work on this stopping & pace, but is worth it in the long run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Kathy Posted August 5, 2003 Report Share Posted August 5, 2003 Thank you Carol for your advice. I just got Jag neutered today so I can't work him much for a few days. But once I can work with him more I'll let you know how it goes. Kathy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Carol Campion Posted August 5, 2003 Report Share Posted August 5, 2003 Once you get back to trying this out, let me know if and where you run into any difficulties! We can take it from there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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