White Headed = Poor Worker

[juliepoudrier]

Thanks Luisa. I was talking to a friend last night who pointed out the same thing about Patch--after I was bragging on how well Pip worked yesterday. She was saying that Patch was colored much like Pip. I can understand trhe sheep testing the dog theory except that it just doesn't make sense to me that sheep would test light colored dogs only and not other "odd" colored dogs. I always understood it as sheep testing "like colored" (colored like the sheep) dogs, but then that doesn't take into account colored sheep. At any rate, so far no sheep has seen fit to challenge Pip, and they don't usually challenge Kat, so it makes me wonder just where these ideas come from, since they certainly don't come out of the blue....

 

J.

[Pipedream Farm]

Julie,

 

Sheep have dichromatic color vision (red & green) while most of us have trichromatic color vision (blue, red & green). This comes into play when we're trying to understand what differences in dog colorations that sheep respond to compared to the coloration differences we are seeing. I don't have a firm grasp on the differences to offer a translation from our color vision to sheep color vision (human observed red = sheep ?, human observed blue merle = sheep ?).

 

Mark

[Moss]

Here are some pixs of my mostly white headed Border Collie working.....a ewe decided to take a run at him at a trial....she lost...he was the only cow dog on the 2nd largest cattle ranch in Canada for 6.5 yrs, then I snagged him. I tried snagging him when he was 3 yr but I couldn't pry him away from Chris but 3.5 yrs later I got him. I never really like white headed and blue-eye dogs, that is...until I met Scotty!!

 

Scott is my *go-to* dog......

 

Photos are by Bonnie Block...a SUPERB handler and Photrgrapher!!

 

Diane

 

FABulous photos - what a smart dog.

 

The white-headed dog = poor worker theory is a load of old bull! Clearly the person who said this hasn't got a clue!

[Moss]

Oh well, I like my (neutered) red boy and will keep working with him even if he's not the best talent. Of all our dogs, he is most like Anna describes--gets a little pouty when corrected--especially if he's tired, which is, of course, more likely since he's red....

 

Robin

 

I haven't seen much bias against red dogs over here to be honest, but there is a definite thinking that merles don't generally make good workers.

[Darci]

Would you like a list of successful trial dogs with white heads? Jonie Swanke's Lew comes to mind right away. Does anyone have a pic of him?

 

Amelia Smith's Price (white face and blue eyed)

http://www.bordersmith.com/trialdogs.php

 

Alasdair's Ben

http://www.macraestockdogs.com/home.html

[Darci]

I am new to this board, but would like to say to anyone that says white headed or mostly white dogs are any less than a good worker, or that sheep will often challenge them more. What did they use to call that in the "old days" ... an old wives tale? I too would be up the creek if mostly white or white headed or faced dogs and those with blue eyes were any less of a worker. I have a *#Ben daughter that consistantly has had at least 2 or 3 pups in a litter that mimic the pattern of their grand dad *# Ben. All pups work, some even trial, or on their way. I am proud of the dogs I have and the pups I've bred, not because of how they look, ( even though they are all beautiful) but because of how they train up, work, and make useful companions on or off the field. I reckon there are those that would choose beauty over biddability, work ethic, trainability, power, style, or any of the other adjetives we use to describe our dogs, for me... the proof is in the pudding. IE. Price, Ben, Del Mar Turk, and the list goes on.

[Pipedream Farm]

While setting sheep, have any of you ever noticed how edgy/nervous the sheep get when a big mostly black dog comes onto the field compared to a smaller evenly mixed B&W dog?

 

Mark

[juliepoudrier]

Interesting observation Mark. Last night Jimmy took Boy out to gather the flock. Folks may not remember Boy (who never really made it above P/N), but he's mostly black with a bit of white on his legs and the back of his neck. He's been retired for years, but Jimmy likes the oldsters and likes to give Boy an opportunity to work. So anyway, I have one Scottish blackface ewe who has been a real witch since she had her lamb--I mean she will come across the pasture after a dog, and she's been giving all my dogs fits (even when they are willing to nail her on the nose). Well last night she turned on Boy and walked out from the flock to stomp at him. According to Jimmy, Boy walked in two steps and raised his head (now Boy is by *no means* a powerhouse--he was retired in the novice classes because he wasn't comfortable walking directly in on sheep), and the ewe turned and went to the center of the flock. Jimmy commented that he thought she reacted as she did because Boy is mostly black and when he lifted his head he looked rather bearlike (this is a person who has lots of livestock experience, but no border collie/herding dog experience, so has not heard the black dogs vs. white dogs thing). I'm more inclined to chalk it up to the fact that the sheep almost never see Boy, so he is an unknown quantity and therefore more "dangerous." At any rate, that ewe came on up and didn't challenge him again. I don't know if that means that a mostly black dog makes sheep more nervous or more respectful or it was the "unknown entity" thing, but that's the anecdotal evidence I have to share.

 

I have to admit that when setting sheep I don't usually notice the competing dog--at least not till it's coming in at the top....

 

J.

[Pipedream Farm]

In light of this dicussion about how animals view or do not view dogs based on color, I found this thread very interesting......

 

Black Dog Syndrome???????

[Marilyn T]

The theory, as I've heard it, says that light colored dogs, reds and mostly whites (not just a white head), are more likely to be tested by sheep based upon the dog's appearence. This constant testing, over time, wears down the dog's confidence leading to a dog that is not confident on sheep. The theory does not say that these colors are linked to weak dogs.

 

I do not have the years of experience to have seen it happen to light colored dogs (unlike others who have stated this hypothesis); however, I have seen sheep move towards our fawn Greyhound and this would also fit with how sheep view the light colored guardian dogs.

 

Mark

 

 

I too have heard this from none other than Alasdair. His statement is that the dogs are not necessarily weaker, or a poorer worker, but that they appear dofferent or less threatening to the sheep, and that over time this constant challenging from a lot of sheep will create lack of confidence in the oddly colored dog. Mostly white headed never seemed to be an issue. Mostly white, or off color does.

 

One of the first analogies I ever heard regarding 'power or presence' was from a Don McCaig book where he describes a lift as being like the following. You are walking down the street and a black limo pulls up to the curb half a block in front of you. A man dressed in black with sunglasses on steps out in front of you and fixes his attention on you, and begins to walk towards you. Most people will have the first instinct to turn and walk away, avoiding contact with the man. He does NOT say the guy is dressed in perky yellow, or white, and wearing a smiley face.

 

It might be true, might not be true, but Alasdair has a ton of more experience than I do on this subject, and given the choice, I will continue to choose a more traditional colored dog. Our sport is hard enough without possibly stacking the deck against long term performance confidence in our partners. JMHO.

[Liz P]

Here is some food for thought...

 

Calico cats are supposed to be the ones with the nastiest personalities. While there are always exceptions to the rule I did find this to be the case. I used to work at a small vet hospital where I really got to know most of the clients by name. If I was asked to make a list of the cats that were hardest to handle all but one would be calico.

 

Research recently showed that red headed humans have different tolerance levels for pain and metabolize drugs differently than non red headed people.

[Chesney's Girl]

For what it's worth:

 

Patch, the border collie [from McCallum lines] that sold for $23,000.00 at the Red Bluff Bull and Gelding sale in Northern California this past January, is colored much like Anna's Alli. In the photo you can see that he's mostly white. He was trained by Bret Venable of Wilton, California and sold to the Bell A Land & Cattle Company of LaPine, Oregon. According to folks up north, his new owner didn’t buy him for bragging rights or to run in trials --- she bought him to work cattle. Word from Red Bluff was that the dog was very talented (and exceptionally well trained). Worth 23 grand? Don't ask me Just mentioning him because he's white.

 

 

I got pictures of her working today. Here are some of a mostly white dog having no problem moving her sheep.

 

[stockdogranch]

She certainly DOES like to bite those heels! (whether they need a "goosing" or not!) I worked her today a bit, and she is fine on both the sheep and the calves so far. It remains to be seen if, as is said, over time, she is challenged more than a traditionally marked dog. So far, just one of the Sufflok sisters gave her a bit of a challenge, and she does that to EVERY dog she meets!

Anna

[Pippin's person]

Anna, what kind of sheep is that with the wooly legs?

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Not Anna. But, Babydoll Southdown, right?

[stockdogranch]

Romney

Anna

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I wish I could say that was my second guess but, uh, not even on the radar. Tell me that's a lamb, please! Do Romneys do well in Southern CA?

[stockdogranch]

Yes, she's definitely a lamb! A friend of mine here in town has Romneys, among other wool sheep, as she is a spinner and weaver. They seem to do OK. We trade lambs in the spring; she has the patience to deal with those buying butcher lambs, and I don't. And at this point in time, I'm looking to increase my numbers, so I need ewe lambs. Those looking to butcher always want ramlambs. So I trade her straight across a ramlamb for a ewe lamb (one she decides hasn't got the fleece she wants). She brought this one a week ago, and as soon as I saw it get off the truck, I knew she would be trouble. I've never seen a sheep so destined to be wool blind--the wool grows right up around her eyes. Not only that, but it only took her 2 days to get foxtails in each eye because of this. We got them out, and I have been doctoring them, but I don't think she'll ever regain full vision again. She is going to be culled ASAP! But she IS cute, with her little "legwarmers" on!

Anna

[Catu]

I saw it and my first tought was.."That baby alpaca has a very short neck" before realize it was actually a lamb

[Jenny Holden]

Everyone knows that a really good sheepdog (work or trials) is one in ten thousand.

Since the majority of these are black and white, it stands to reason that the majority of "good" dogs are black and white. But prove that it is down to colour?!

You'd have to take a large sample size of pups with equal numbers of each colour, bring them up and train them the same, feed them the same food...

and then see whether a greater proportion of a certain colour turn out to be better sheepdogs. I'll look forward to the results

You go to a trial and watch dog after dog and which sticks in the memory: the brilliant and the different. If a black and white dog does a rubbish run, no one bats and eye lid. A red and white does a bad run and it is remembered, "those red dogs are useless, I saw one run at a trial once."

My dog is red and white and there are a few others at training class. As a group they are no better or worse than the black and whites and tris: they compare just the same.

 

Jenny

[Jenny Holden]

I think that "theory" is a very kind word for that...

 

Everyone in our nearby college town (Morgantown) insists that my dogs are "crossed with something" because they don't "look like purebred Border Collies". Those who know the difference between working-bred dogs and show-bred dogs understand and the rest don't/won't. No matter what anyone says.

 

This is quite funny because I've just had my wrists slapped on another BC discussion list for commenting the following:

"I'm not against showing, but I don't like what is

being done to BCs for the show ring. It seems we will end up with two

different breeds: proper border collies and box shaped, poofy animals that are quiet,

overly biddable and will stand around in a show ring without making a fuss

about how bored they are. They are supposed to be judged on having a

confirmation, coat and character that is suited to their job. Have you noticed

how show border collies all look identical, whereas when you go to a trial

it is sometimes difficult to believe that they are all the same breed?"

 

Apparently I was "being rude" to those on the list who kept show dogs! I was told that I might prefer to join a working dog list... so I ended up here by kind recommendation

[Bo Peep]

I have heard this rumor and some I believe it's true, but it's not the face!!!

I had a bald faced dog that was my strongest dog. In fact at a trial, I sent her for an outrun and she walked straight up on the sheep- I was so embarrassed until a "big named trialer" came up to me and offered me $1,000.00 for that dog. I said "She didn't even do an outrun correctly" but he saw her power. NO- I didn't sell her. LOL.

But, I have seen dogs with a lot of white on their bodies that have had more trouble with sheep.

There are some dogs that just enter a field and get the sheep's attention. I have one of those dogs now. Unfortunately, I'm not working him.

[Shetlander]

Apparently I was "being rude" to those on the list who kept show dogs! I was told that I might prefer to join a working dog list... so I ended up here by kind recommendation

 

So that was you! For what it's worth, I didn't think you were rude but the moderator is very sensitive to any possible bashing. That list is more a general interest group with people who come from a variety of positions on BC's.

 

Anyway, welcome to the Boards. I think you'll find this community a better fit. I know I've learned lots in the past two years I've been a member.

[mjk05]

I haven't read every reply, but I've heard a few times (even from their handlers) that white-faced dogs have a different effect on sheep to black-faced dogs. Either they don't influence the sheep as strongly, or even that they draw sheep- in particular lambs. I guess it's another factor, like prick ears or tail carriage or posture, that affects the dog's presence- and can then be extrapolated by slightly clueless people to mean inferior working ability.

 

We've recently taken on 2 littermates, one white faced, one not, and it will be interesting to see how they develop, whether the white-face will be a factor- their breeder thinks it will, that the white-faced boy will have to be stronger for the same work. We were talking with a friend who runs another white-headed dog, and she believes her dog sometimes draws sheep, or that the white head helps compensate for the unsettling effect her dog sometimes has on sheep. it would be interesting to do some experiments with dark paint to test the theory.

[r b m]

I was at a clinic last year and some man came up to me and said "You know I heard from so and so back in the old country, they used to whack the red pups in the head because they knew they'd be no good." I didn't say anything because I was kind of taken back. But ever since, that comment has kind of haunted me, and I have armed myself with a list of retorts if it ever happens again. Anyway, my trainer has several dogs, mostly B/W or tri. My favorite dog of hers to watch work is Nell, who has qualified for and competed in Nationals. She is well balanced with power and grace. IMO, she lives to work more so than any of her other dogs, she just has this look and feel about her. And although I'm partial to them, she is a red.... with a mostly white face.

 

My red dog is stubborn, she makes me work for every ounce of respect. She lacks natural confidence and power, but over the past few months, I've noticed a tremendous improvement in those areas. I attribute that to having a good trainer, working on driving and me never giving up on her. She may never be a national champion or even a great open or ranch dog, but that doesn't bother me, I won't breed her, and I'm learning. My trainer says I've actually lucked out with my first dog, she's taught me a lot.

 

Anyway, to each his own. If the working border collie mantra holds true, color shouldn't matter anyway. Just my $.02

 

Richard