White Headed = Poor Worker

[Journey]

This is what I was told over the weekend However, I know it not to be true. What I am looking for is a site or reference to give this person to debunk this myth she was told.

 

I have already sent the link to the USBCC site and the "White Dog" info. Can anyone point out other sites or books? I have offered to give her the books I have to read.

 

Thanks!

 

Karen

[RaisingRiver]

Maybe a better approach would be to have your friend PROVE white-headed dogs are poor workers.

[Journey]

Maybe a better approach would be to have your friend PROVE white-headed dogs are poor workers.

 

Yes, that is a better idea, but we're pretty Border Collie poor in this area. And, the person in question works "other breeds". Someone mentioned on a different thread about Border Collie bias (taking delight and effort to prove Border Collie's are not all great...) at clinics and what not, I can't believe I ran into it this weekend but I did.

 

Karen

[Liz P]

Would you like a list of successful trial dogs with white heads? Jonie Swanke's Lew comes to mind right away. Does anyone have a pic of him?

 

Amelia Smith's Price (white face and blue eyed)

http://www.bordersmith.com/trialdogs.php

 

Alasdair's Ben

http://www.macraestockdogs.com/home.html

[ItsADogsLyfe]

how about all the Supreme Champions some of which were two time winners? Zac, Wisp, Spot. If white faced dogs were poor workers I'd be up a creek as my best dog is a white faced dog.

[Journey]

how about all the Supreme Champions some of which were two time winners? Zac, Wisp, Spot. If white faced dogs were poor workers I'd be up a creek as my best dog is a white faced dog.

 

 

Thanks for all the suggestions on particular dogs. I have gone there already, I just am looking to solidify a point. However, I can send her the links to Joni Swankes' farm for Lew and ISDS, jeepers, I hadn't thought of the ISDS site....

 

Thanks everyone!

 

Karen

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Yes, just a glance through Blue Ribband will dispel that myth pretty quickly.

[Journey]

Yes, just a glance through Blue Ribband will dispel that myth pretty quickly.

 

 

Yes, I have that one pulled as well as Key Dogs, Hill Sheperd, A Way of Life and a few others.

 

Karen

[bc4pack]

Wish my white boy was further along (he's got Wisp blood).... just so one could kinda sing-song 'naa,na,na..na,naa,na'.

 

Okay, I know that's not playing nicely...

[Mona Howard]

The person who made the statement about the white-headed dog is

just showing their ignorance. Some people have a need to let you know they

know everything about your particular breed. Like the guy who said my tri-color

couldn't be pure and my smooth coat couldn't possibly be a border collie. What a

jerk. I just thanked him for setting me straight while laughing to myself. I was

in the vet's waiting room at the time and I could see the receptionist rolling her eyes

at him.

[Liz P]

I was in the waiting room with one of my dogs and the guy sitting next to me kept insisting his dog was a purebred BC. It was the shape of a Shitzhu but about 40 lbs and had long, wavy hair like one too. He insisted it was a throwback to the days when Bearded Collies were bred with Border Collies to improve the herding instincts of BCs. I smiled and told him I had never heard that theory before.

[Sue R]

I think that "theory" is a very kind word for that...

 

Everyone in our nearby college town (Morgantown) insists that my dogs are "crossed with something" because they don't "look like purebred Border Collies". Those who know the difference between working-bred dogs and show-bred dogs understand and the rest don't/won't. No matter what anyone says.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

Here are some pixs of my mostly white headed Border Collie working.....a ewe decided to take a run at him at a trial....she lost...he was the only cow dog on the 2nd largest cattle ranch in Canada for 6.5 yrs, then I snagged him. I tried snagging him when he was 3 yr but I couldn't pry him away from Chris but 3.5 yrs later I got him. I never really like white headed and blue-eye dogs, that is...until I met Scotty!!

 

Scott is my *go-to* dog......

 

Photos are by Bonnie Block...a SUPERB handler and Photrgrapher!!

 

 

 

 

 

Diane

[Pippin's person]

I have heard much the same about red dogs. In fact, in informal polling I've done, there seems to be a consensus that red dogs don't work as well as white dogs (or merles or other variants of BC). This is not about individual dogs--all the people I've talked to have said there are individual red dogs that do well in both practical work and at trials; however, to a person they have also said that there are far fewer good red dogs than other versions, including white and merles. I never know exactly what they mean by saying that there aren't many good red dogs working sheep, although I have heard both that sheep respond differently to red dogs and that red dogs don't have the same stamina as the others. In our case, it is true that our red tri doesn't have the stamina of our others--but it's hard to prove whether that's due to his redness or not.

 

I have wondered if the perception that red dogs aren't as good leads to fewer red dogs generally in the stock-dog gene pool--something that would lead over time, presumably, to fewer good red dogs. That coupled with the increase in breeding for reds (which will naturally dilute other traits, like working ability), might just be the perfect storm for red dogs--and to some degree white dogs. At a trial where I was recently, I heard someone complaining bitterly about a trial-bred puppy she'd purchased being mostly white (she'd purchased the dog from a friend without seeing it first).

[stockdogranch]

Well, I can let you know next week about the mostly white dogs...one of my litter from last year (Tikkle's littermate) is coming home next week. Her owner suddenly passed away, and I couldn't wait to buy her back (of course, a dear friend and one of the few I would trust to start a dog started her, and he likes her a lot). So, I will let you know--she has a white body with two black patches, and a black head; he named her Alli, after Al Jolsen ha! (You'll only get that if you're old like me!!) As for red dogs, I admit, I am one of those for whom they are not my favorite. I have seen some very nice ones, but the handful I have worked (good breeding) tend to have one common characteristic that I find frustrating: they seem to be a bit stubborn/hard-headed, but when you put any pressure on them to deal with the hard-headedness, they fold. So, hard-headed, but pressure-sensitive. Not a combination that works well for me . But, that is certainly not a scientific study, rather merely anecdotal from a handful of experiences,

Anna

[juliepoudrier]

I think it's always a mistake to generalize working ability based on general characteristics like color or coat length. A lot of these color myths came about because of the personal preferences of the people who created the breed. As I've noted before, red is carried in some very well-known lines, and one would expect those dogs to work just as well as any of their B&W family members. If Twist had has a red pup, I probably would have kept it. As it is, I kept the mostly white pup (sounds a lot like Anna's Alli WRT to color). Only time will tell if he's actually made weaker because of his color (the myth being that sheep won't respect a white dog and so even a confident white dog will eventually have its confidence undermined by the disrespectful sheep. BTW, I've heard the same reasoning applied to red dogs.)

 

Anyway, when a color appears in the population in a lower percentage, then the stellar workers will also appear in a correspondingly lower percentage. But if you're breeding for the work and not for color, then the dogs of any color ought to be able to work.

 

J.

[Pippin's person]

Julie, that's been my thinking too, but the bias against red dogs is so pervasive among stock people that it has made me really wonder. It doesn't make logical sense to me, but a trial judge I was talking with about it said that even taking dogs from the same litter, the red ones will be worse. Which is curious since I think that Winston Cap's mother was red.

 

I'm inclined toward thinking it's a matter of unnatural selection based on human bias/preference--which over time would have a real effect, I think. Also, who knows, maybe there is somethign about work tied to the gene(s) that determine color. On the other hand, I think I read somewhere (how's that for scientific...) that coat color and size in dogs generally are determined by a suprisingly small number of genes, which I think is significantly less the case with something as complex as working ability.

 

Oh well, I like my (neutered) red boy and will keep working with him even if he's not the best talent. Of all our dogs, he is most like Anna describes--gets a little pouty when corrected--especially if he's tired, which is, of course, more likely since he's red....

 

Robin

[Pipedream Farm]

The theory, as I've heard it, says that light colored dogs, reds and mostly whites (not just a white head), are more likely to be tested by sheep based upon the dog's appearence. This constant testing, over time, wears down the dog's confidence leading to a dog that is not confident on sheep. The theory does not say that these colors are linked to weak dogs.

 

I do not have the years of experience to have seen it happen to light colored dogs (unlike others who have stated this hypothesis); however, I have seen sheep move towards our fawn Greyhound and this would also fit with how sheep view the light colored guardian dogs.

 

Mark

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

White headed dogs are often "normal" colored in the body, so I think they sort of "don't count" in this discussion, especially since there is so much clear anecdotal evidence to the contrary.

 

I suspect the white-bodied dog thing is pretty much baloney too - there's too many white dogs out west who move cattle and range sheep just fine to believe there's any truth to that. It's possible they don't make great trial dogs, I don't know.

 

But over the years I've known an awful lot of people who tell me they started out saying, "Merles and reds, I didn't want to beleive there was a difference, but I had to accept it after a while."

 

I'm fairly sure Hetherington's Ann was b/w, but that she did throw reds. I've got the article around here somewhere.

 

OK, John Herries McCulloch says,

 

J.M. Wilson's Craig . . .[1169]undoubtedly inherited the genes for chocolate colour from Dickson's Hemp who carried the genes for that colour. Dickson's Hemp inherited them through his dam, Fenwick Jed . . .decended from the Northumbrian Grasslees strain of chocolate-coloured dogs." Border Collie Studies, 1938

 

So it goes back quite a bit further than that.

[Pippin's person]

Thanks Becca--interesting stuff.

 

The quote you gave suggests that at least back in the 19th century there was a line of good working red dogs....

[Liz P]

Don't you think the color bias against reds, merles and other "rare" colors has at least something to do with the fact that they tend to attract people who breed for color and therefore dilute out working ability?

[kelpiegirl]

Yeah- that's my take on it...

J

 

Don't you think the color bias against reds, merles and other "rare" colors has at least something to do with the fact that they tend to attract people who breed for color and therefore dilute out working ability?

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Maybe today. But it was that way before there was such a thing as a "Fancy" breeder. The same article I mentioned said that red was undesireable back in the ninteen-twenties.

[Black Watch Debatable]

For what it's worth:

 

Patch, the border collie [from McCallum lines] that sold for $23,000.00 at the Red Bluff Bull and Gelding sale in Northern California this past January, is colored much like Anna's Alli. In the photo you can see that he's mostly white. He was trained by Bret Venable of Wilton, California and sold to the Bell A Land & Cattle Company of LaPine, Oregon. According to folks up north, his new owner didn’t buy him for bragging rights or to run in trials --- she bought him to work cattle. Word from Red Bluff was that the dog was very talented (and exceptionally well trained). Worth 23 grand? Don't ask me Just mentioning him because he's white.

[Journey]

For what it's worth:

 

Word from Red Bluff was that the dog was very talented (and exceptionally well trained). Worth 23 grand? Don't ask me Just mentioning him because he's white.

 

Well, thank you! That was an easy link to forward on. I suppose by now I have flooded the person who made the comment, I just hope the quick education was worth it.