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Just some thoughts:

 

I searched "border collie" on Google and was directed to this site (not the boards, but the main page). A quick read of the top paragraphs didn't provide a clue that this was NOT for AKC'ers (I'm not one by the way.)

 

Next search on "border collie discussion" took me directly to the boards.

 

There is no header on this page that indicates 'AKC NOT welcome". There is in the "Read this first" but it is a few paragraphs down. Finally, it is possible to pull up a flat threaded view of the boards, depending on what browser is used. This means that the rest of the page is not even visible.

 

I would make the claim that Net folks DON'T read "read me's", other than to quickly scan them and are expecting the usual, "be courteous, we can delet e your message, no profanity" et al messages.

 

Food for thought: how 'bout a page header that is your tagline and which indicates that you are split from AKC, such as:

"Working dogs extraordinairre, Not for show" (Well, I'm not clever enough to come up with a good line.)

 

I for one am a BC newbie (2.5 years) but my original research did NOT make it clear and easily distinguishable which groups were NOT AKC affiliated. There is much reading to wade through, and folks simply aren't going to do it. I finally got clear on this site from a referral. (Otherwise it would take a schematic to figure out all of the clubs, associations, et al and how they were all connected.)

 

Thanks for listening. I like what you're doing and am very supportive.

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Please accept this post in the spirit in which it is offered. It is certainly not my intent to be belligerent or argumentative. (I know that no one would ever accuse me of that...Right?...RIGHT?!?)

 

While I am merely a participant on this board, and not an originator or moderator, I would observe that you may have misunderstood the nature of the participants here. AKC'ers are welcome, as is any dog owner. In fact, one does not even have to be a Border Collie owner to be welcome here; many have BC mixes (I have both), while others have closely related breeds (e.g., ACD's, Australian Shepherds). In my experience, anyone who loves dogs and wants to talk about them is welcome here. You may have misinterpreted the desire of those on this board to promote BC's as a true working breed, and thus support the organizations that further this objective (i.e., USBCC), as being exclusionary to proponents of AKC. The quote from the "Read This First" states, Border collies should not be registered with the AKC. This is a statement of opinion by the founders of this board, based on its view (which I personally support) that the breed is diminished by breeding for conformance standards rather than working ability; but the statement does not indicate that AKC'ers are not welcome. (And, yes, "working ability" is NOT limited exclusively to herding; for instance, many on this board have dogs that are involved in agility and S&R, as well as therapy dogs. Annie, as an example, is an accomplished ball retriever and companion dog, whose avocation is working with children and the elderly as a therapy dog.) When I joined this board, I was never asked whether Annie was AKC-registered or ABCA-registered (she is, in fact, ABCA-registered); the only thing that mattered was the fact that I loved my dogs, and wanted to share my views and experiences with others.

 

So if one is an AKC'er, Welcome! One may become involved in some interesting debates; but as long as everyone is civil, there should be no problem.

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Everyone's different, I know. But for me, I lurked here for a while, read and got a feel for the "direction" of the board before I ever joined or posted. It would be nice if everyone else did the same, but if not, I don't see why people wouldn't read the "Read This First" bit, first!

 

JMO, but I get the feeling that our new poster in the photo section was well aware of the feelings of this board before she posted. Some people just like conflict. :rolleyes:

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When I first joined (geez, it's been years?...whoopsie!) I joined because I had a border collie puppy and I wanted advice and support from a group of border collie owners.

 

I happened to do a search for the ABCA because when I was handed my little boy pup, I was also given his ABCA papers, but that's about it.

 

When I first started posting, I don't think anyone asked, or cared, whether Combat was AKC registered, ABCA registered, or registered at all.

 

What we care about is the -breeding- of these dogs. If a person is going to breed border collies, they need to do so based on that dogs working ability and they need to -not- be affiliated with AKC. It's also the general idea that most of us don't like to support AKC sanctioned events, but a lot of that is on a personal level - I don't like giving my money to a group who encourages the mass production of dogs based on a pretty coat.

 

Anyway. My point is - people who own AKC registered dogs aren't immediately kicked out - they just need to read the boards, get a feel for the place, and understand that when they start babbling about conformation showing and all that fluff that a good many of us aren't going to be impressed, and a few will nicely point out the uselessness of the AKC show-ring.

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And it seems that maybe some AKC folks will 'see the light'. There are quite a few members here who started with AKC dogs and have gone to rescue and working bred dogs. I think the eduction value of this forum is great, and the more bc interested people it can reach, the better. Just MHO.

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It's smart to lurk for a while, but I'm afraid I think the AKC'er was likely an innocent stray. After all, who wants to spend that time setting themselves up to get bombasted?!

 

Rather, i suspect they were proudly wanting to show off their dog and "credentials"....thinking that they had a found like minded souls.

 

So another idea: before responding I would first ask: is this person really reaching out for a like minded soul? (I was--I had a crazy, unusual dog and I wanted to find some folks who understood her better than i did.) Remember honey vs. ....i forgot how it goes.

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Remember honey vs. ....i forgot how it goes.

 

 

You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar.

 

Yours platituduously,

 

Celia

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IMO, even if someone finds the board through a linked thread, the next thing they do is bring up the main page for the General section - and there is the "read this first" link... right there up at the top. Even if they don't read that, I don't think it takes reading more than one... maybe two threads on this board to get a feel for the culture of this board. Go to the main page - the very first section is the Working forums. Go to the picture forum - there's several working photo threads... and no "Here's my dog at a Conformation Show" threads. If a person is doing their homework, it's not that hard to figure out the views held by the general population on a particular board.

 

I'm not saying it's OK to be ugly to new folks (or anyone, for that matter), because it's not. However, I don't know that I've ever joined a board that I didn't take the time to get a "feel" for the board before posting. I also think that if I went to a pro-confo board I could expect to have folks their question my suitability as a breeder since my dogs don't have CH titles (hypothetically... I don't breed). In addition, do we go so far in today's "tolerance" and "relativistic" society as to NOT put our views out there on one of the most important issues we have here, just so that someone's feelings aren't hurt? I don't think so. We don't have to be ugly, but we also don't have to lie or bite our tongues either.

 

The poster in question states on her web-site that she's aware of the differing views on breeding the BC, and she states where she stands on that pendulum. The "oh, I can't believe you all don't agree with me" dog won't hunt here. Sorry.

 

It's not that the AKC folks aren't welcome... it's that we're not going to disreguard what's important to us to give them warm fuzzies.

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One of the primary functions of this board, de facto, is to help secure the happy life of an individual border collie. Despite the stated intentions, focus and audience of this board, I think that most people come here as a result of trying very hard to do the right thing for a dog that has adopted them one way or another. The trail to quality information tends to lead here. Frankly, the politics of this board is of secondary importance to me... provided that the information that I need to keep my furry companion healthy and happy is here.

 

I do think the embedded information in the Read Me First is glanced over because of a jaded cybersavvy audience. I do not think that many people feel they have time to 'get accostomed' to the board when the come here at 3 am because the 8 week old in her crate is chewing the bars and bleating incessantly. I agree that it would be useful if there were a way to banner a simple statement, like....Be advised: Out of concern for the integrity of the breed we have strong opinions about issues concerning the breeding and use of border collies here. Please consult the ABCA statements at (link) to find guidance in addressing those issues in your posts.

 

But quite frankly, the argumentative threads that I have seen here in the last year and a half are so short lived and minor in comparison to those on other boards

concerning matters of much less consequence. Naivite does tend to get blasted into polished wisdom here rather quickly....but for the welfare of a dog...who would not pay such a price?

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Yes, but I think there is a difference between a newcomer to the breed looking for information and a breeder, who is well aware of the politics of the border collie world (if they're breeding, we'll assume they are not new to the breed and have taken a position within these politics--otherwise, yikes!!), "bragging" on the breeding they've done on this board. Someone who is not new to border collie politics would need to read only a very few posts before realizing which "camp" this board falls into. Thus, it seems intentionally inflamatory to me--what's that called...oh yes, being a "troll," or deliberately posting a contrary viewpoint solely to stir controversy. I don't actually mind it that much, as I feel the more it's discussed, the more lurkers with less experience will become aware of the issues at stake. But it's a far cry from attacking Patty Pet-Owner who comes to the Boards hoping to find out how to deal with her new puppy.

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Someone who comes here and starts bragging on their conformation-bred dogs might be one of three types of people:

 

Someone who didn't know better, coming from another breed where such achievements are truly a measure of quality in the breed.

 

Someone who had no real choice but to get a conformation-bred dog (I think of people overseas), or who ended up with one or more by accident.

 

Someone who has come here knowing exactly what this Board is - and make no mistake, from what I read on AKC-focused communities, they are aware of this Board and keep close tabs on it. If you don't believe me, drop a less-than-complimentary comment about a random AKC breeder by name and count how many minutes goes by before they start appearing here with the calvary in tow.

 

I assume the first in every case, keeping the second possibility in mind if I note an overseas origin to the post. And most people aren't really interested in the breeding politics anyway.

 

I recognized this particular person immediately, but still there was room for doubt. It was possible she was exploring the working world. There's some understandable dissatisfaction within the Kennel Club ranks as the folks who excel in conformation and have the most prestige within the club, turn up their noses at the sports bred dog.

 

As I mentioned, however, her own tone and statements put that theory to rest very quickly. I would have personally given her more rope to hang herself with, but it still turned into a thread we could point to and say, "See what they think of the people who choose to breed Border Collies exclusively to excel at their original purpose?"

 

The amusing thing at the beginning of the thread, was that poor Kelsey didn't realize that the majority of the comments about her dogs being "pretty" or "cute", were ironic.

 

To address the OPs question directly, I think it was reasonable of the first few responses to quietly say, "Welcome to the boards. Be sure you READ THIS FIRST."

 

And yes, I do wish there were a banner or something that said - "BC Boards - Sponsored by USBCC! Supporting the working Border Collie!" - but that's just the PR person in me. :rolleyes:

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"amicable divorce, hospitality, influence change"? :rolleyes:

 

There's no "AKC not welcome" header because that's not the case. Trolls are not welcome (and it's evident to me from reading the thread that this Gallery poster was trolling -- as it probably is by now to you also, Spice), but a header would not keep trolls off. If someone came on and innocently posted about their conformation border collies, they would be greeted as this person was -- by someone referring them to the READ THIS FIRST statement. So even if newcomers don't bother reading the READ THIS FIRST first (and I have to sadly agree with you that many don't), they will soon be directed to it if appropriate. I would rather they learned about us from that statement than from a header, because I don't think we can say what's important to be said in 25 words or less.

 

Contrary to the bad rap on us, I cannot recall any newcomers who came on and simply posted about their dogs here -- conformation or otherwise -- ever being told their dogs were ugly or being treated rudely at all. The people who confronted this particular poster apparently knew her from some other forum, and had reason to question her motives based on that.

 

There are certainly AKC people on the Boards. I can't imagine warning them off or turning them away if they come here for advice or information. If they come here for an argument, they'll get one, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Many AKC people know no other point of view, and gain from being exposed to a different point of view. I can cite no better example than Heather Nadelman, proprietor of LittleHats and my colleague in the maintenance of these Boards. She was AKC through and through when she first came onto a border collie internet discussion forum 10+ years ago (a much more rough and tumble forum than this, I might add). Had put conformation, obedience and tracking titles on all her dogs and believed versatility was the highest canine ideal. But she is a very intelligent person, and a serious thinker about dogs, and gradually she came to the view that conformation and the versatility ideal are wrong for border collies. Had she been turned away at the start, that wouldn't have happened, and that would be a loss for her, for us, and for the dogs. Not everyone is open and flexible enough to reconsider ingrained ideas, especially when their self-interest is involved, but there are certainly others who have argued and questioned and come to the same realization. They won't come to it if they're not exposed to it.

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Trolls are not welcome

That's discrimination!!! As a troll in good standing, I am writing to my local chapter of TADD (Trolls Against Defamation and Discrimination)!!! You can expect to see 10,000 trolls marching in the street outside your home tomorrow morning, carrying signs, chanting "Be good to trolls", etc. :rolleyes:

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That's discrimination!!! As a troll in good standing, I am writing to my local chapter of TADD (Trolls Against Defamation and Discrimination)!!! You can expect to see 10,000 trolls marching in the street outside your home tomorrow morning, carrying signs, chanting "Be good to trolls", etc.

 

I've woke up to worse than that, believe me! :rolleyes: Wave so I'll know which one is you.

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Could be. But the reason for my comment earlier was, it kind of seems that the new poster and one or two regular posters might have some sort of history...but I'm probably wrong.

 

Oh my, dont they do have a history!You certainly aren't wrong lol

One of them are very nice to me, and so is the other, but we really are neutral I would say...?

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If people with AKC dogs weren't welcome, I would have been kicked off. :rolleyes: I think there's a difference between someone joining the board and owning a KC, show-bred dog and joining the board to brag on their litter from said KC show dog.

 

Unless people just join this forum and blindly make a post, it's easy to get a feel for the culture of this board by simply reading some threads. Heck, the website that directed me to these boards initially (all about border collies) has a great deal of information opposing AKC recognition of the breed. I don't understand how someone could just wander in, skip all of that information and post a thread about their dogs, their show wins and their breedings -- and then claim that they didn't know the board was opposed to those activities.

 

I felt uncomfortable here at first too, because I thought everyone hated my family's dog because of his breeding. But I don't think the members of this board have a problem with the dogs, they just have a problem with the breeding of those dogs. I live with an AKC, sport-bred dog but people don't turn up their nose when I post about him. Against my advice, my father is getting another AKC sport dog but I don't feel any less welcome because of that.

 

Anyway, I'm rambling but I guess my point was that this board is not going to turn anyone away if they are willing to listen and learn. The people who come here only to post their own personal views (knowing that they oppose those of the majority on the board) and back them up with name-calling and rude comments are not welcomed -- but what board WOULD welcome trolls?

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There's no "AKC not welcome" header because that's not the case. Trolls are not welcome (and it's evident to me from reading the thread that this Gallery poster was trolling -- as it probably is by now to you also, Spice), but a header would not keep trolls off. If someone came on and innocently posted about their conformation border collies, they would be greeted as this person was -- by someone referring them to the READ THIS FIRST statement. So even if newcomers don't bother reading the READ THIS FIRST first (and I have to sadly agree with you that many don't), they will soon be directed to it if appropriate. I would rather they learned about us from that statement than from a header, because I don't think we can say what's important to be said in 25 words or less.

 

Just so those of you who work hard on the READMEs and other important posts know, I did read them before signing up and posting. And searched in the archives and just generally got very attached to the whole place before I even was registered and made my first posts. So to those of you who have been here for years educating newbies, thanks for all your work! Your old posts and other info have helped me and I am sure there are many people who came, found the answer the needed, and wandered off before ever registering.

 

For me, the history here showed it was the type of place I wanted to be with a nice community that would care and help and not chase me off just because my pup doesn't have papers. For horses, we say here in DK that you can't ride the pedigree. In this case, the pedigree won't herd your stock. What you get with a pedigree is a guideline that shows what your dog is likely to be. And if you are going to breed, it is a good idea to think about what the pups are likely to be when creating them. For the border collie to continue as a working breed, the main line of breeding needs to focus on working dogs. Plus I would expect that a good working dog is more likely to have fewer health problems. How many breeds have gone bad because breeding has focused on something that doesn't require and promote good health?

 

Just a few thoughts and some thanks for all of you who spend so much time and energy helping those of us who are new to the BC world and just want to make the dogs we have happy and healthy.

 

sincerely,

Rebecca

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Well, no one has asked ME to leave yet... :rolleyes:

 

Ha!

 

Ok, now I see that this "poor soul" was a Troll. But it took some digging to reveal that (someone actually went out to their site.)

 

Still here are some of my impressions/experiences:

1. All dog clubs/orgs are a just all a tad short on PR--which can actually be useful. In my recent search EVERY dog group I've encountered behaves in a way that sends out messages like "we are for the already initiated"--except for the friendly folks at the dog parks.

2. There is generally a bit of "tribalism" in these groups too; this board included.

3. The responses in this thread alone support my theory. :D

 

'Just a bit of reflection if it were ever deemed useful. That said, I appreciate the wealth of wisdom that is available from the various experts as well as the words of encouragement and support from most.

 

Cheers!

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Well, I see it a little different...

 

You have a group of very commited working BC owners who do their best to preserve the breed as a working breed. The vast majority of the population doesn't understand why that is important. So they patiently answer questions and try to educate others. They welcome the vast majority of newbies with their working bred, show bred, sport bred or mixed breed rescue dog. They work to help and educate those people.

 

And then someone comes along, knowing the stance of the board, and proudly shows off their conformation dogs, and tells folks who have been invovled with working BCs for years that they don't know what they are talking about. While I admire some of her accomplishments with her dogs, she still was looking to start a wildfire.

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I do think there is always a sense of tribalism in any group but it's also normal. All things considered, this group is actaully very open minded and open to anyone who does not try to stuff conformation breeding down their throat. I say "their" because I have show bred dogs....so I suppose I've come off as fairly trollish in the past (and maybe will again in the future) but I don't breed them nor do I think they should be bred. If to be welcoming a group has to open its arms to the very concept it abhors, then it wouldn't be very honest, and if a group isn't honest about a big issue, how can you believe anything they say about anything else?

 

And why should any group have to label itself as anti-anything when all it has to be is pro-something. It's up to the person popping in to see if there is something of value to be learned or to share.

 

Maria

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