Trimming Top of Outrun

[r b m]

After a few sessions of working on driving, we decided to see where Sienna's outrun was. And to be honest, it's all gone to poo. Granted we've decided to mix the outrun into every lesson now, but her biggest problem is cutting in at the top. Sometimes we can chalk it up as her covering some kind of draw, but not always. She has also reverted back to stopping in the middle of her outrun, sniffing around/shade diving. When we began working on driving, her outrun was looking pretty good, more and more gusto with each lesson. Maybe we stopped too soon? We've used the get back command, which works fairly well, but sometimes causes her to shut down... any thoughts?

 

Richard

[stockdogranch]

As a general rule of thumb: any time anything starts to slip at a distance, shorten it back up. So for an outrun that is getting sloppy at the top, shorten it back up to a distance where you can be in a position to make sure the dog is right. Work on that distance a while, then gradually increase it. Chopping the top is relatively common, but easily fixable as long as you keep the distance to one where you can make sure it happens correctly. What kind of distance are we talking about here?

 

I would be more concerned with:

 

stopping in the middle of her outrun, sniffing around/shade diving.

 

This sounds like avoidance behavior--the dog is feeling too much pressure for some reason. You say the dog has "reverted" to this behavior. Was this a recurring behavior on the outrun; if so, how long did the dog do this? Do you have any ideas what might have occurred/changed to allow that behavior to stop? It's really hard to say for sure without seeing the dog and having more history on the dog and its training and work, but I would say to try to keep things light and fun for the dog. How old is the dog? Let it do things it is really comfortble with--for instance, if the dog is comfortable just doing walkabouts, then I would do that a fair amount, only mixing in the "pressure" stuff, like outruns or driving, or whatever else is "new" or makes the dog feel pressured, in very small amounts here and there. And, depending on how much the dog is showing that it's feeling too much pressure, I might lay off the driving entirely for a while, while I got things back to being relaxed again.

 

You also say that:

 

We've used the get back command, which works fairly well, but sometimes causes her to shut down

 

Again, "shutting down" is generally a sign of too much pressure for some reason. What about tone of voice? Does your "get back" sound like a reprimand rather than just a command? Many dogs are very sensitive to tone of voice, and the dog might think it's in trouble rather than just being directed. We can get very excited and tend to sound panicky when we see a dog that might crash in at the top, and so the tone of our "get back" may convey that panicky feeling. The softer the voice, the better, I think.

 

The main thing to remember is this: if the dog is not doing whatever you're asking it to do correctly, either it hasn't been trained sufficiently to do it correctly all the time, or it may be confused as to what we are asking for. Either way, the answer is the same: go back and train that element.

 

Not sure if any of these ramblings are relevant, but if you could give more details, that might help,

Anna

[r b m]

No, your ramblings more than what I was looking for. My dog just turned 2 in March. My tone with the get back is a bit harsh and it's more out of frustration than anything because I'm like "you know this, what's going on!?!" As for distance, our last outrun lesson was is in the big field at about 200+ yards. For driving we went back into the large pen, which gives about 100+ yards max for an outrun. I think you may be right. We need to go back to smaller outruns. My trainer sees a lot of dogs and I think she forgets sometimes where exactly each dog is at. When we moved onto driving, I remember thinking to myself "are you sure? the outrun isn't where I'd like it to be"

[juliepoudrier]

When we moved onto driving, I remember thinking to myself "are you sure? the outrun isn't where I'd like it to be"

Richard,

One thing to keep in mind is that often the outrun suffers when you start driving, so the problem isn't unique to your dog (that should make you feel a little better) . Anna's right about shortening the distance till she is right and then working back out from there. As for the right time to teach driving, I believe that you can start teaching it as soon as the opportunity presents itself (i.e., there is no *specific* time at which you start driving training). For example, if I'm working one of the pups and it fetches the sheep to me and things are going well, I might just turn and let the pup push the sheep on past me, even if just for a few steps. The pups don't have much in the way of outruns yet (maybe 25 yards, if that), but that doesn't mean they can't do a little driving too, if the situation allows and it makes sense to do so. Some folks don't "train" outruns till later, instead teaching flanks at hand and making sure the dog is solid on those before working on an outrun (since an outrun is just a really big flank). Anyway, all this rambling is just to say that training doesn't have to follow specific steps--just take advantage of situations to introduce something new when the opportunity presents itself, and keep distances short whenever introducing something new or when the dog starts making mistakes at longer distances. Working close won't mean that your dog can't do the greater distances--I know a lot of folks who don't have the space to do 400-600 yard outruns, but they still go to trials with such outruns and their dogs get out to the sheep just fine--because they've trained the basics well.

 

I also agree with Anna regarding the idea that your dog is feeling too much pressure. Lighten your voice when you correct her with your get back command (matter-of-fact is good enough, no need for real harsh tones), and when she starts sniffing or wants to quit, be encouraging and go back to stuff she does well to help build her confidence.

 

J.

[stockdogranch]

Julie's absolutely right about there not being any necessary order to teaching concepts. Driving is one I also start, at least little hints of it, asap. Whenever the sheep present an opportunity for it, I let a pup take the sheep away from me. For instance, every night, we gather the sheep and put them into the arena for the night. Any time around dusk, if I pull the truck up to the gate, the sheep will naturally gather themselves and head toward the arena. I let the pup "help" with the gather, and just follow the sheep into the arena, while I'm standing back out of the picture, telling the pup to walk up. Now, the sheep are going there, anyway, whether or not there's a dog there, but the pup doesn't really know that, and begins to get a feel for "driving." That way, when we really begin training the drive "formally," it's not such a big deal, and the dog isn't always wanting to slip around to the head to fetch them like many do. I like to expose the pup to as many different scenarios as possible as young as I can, as long as the pup can't get hurt or bullied by the stock,

Anna

[juliepoudrier]

Anna,

I did something similar with Lark when I'd put the sheep up at night last fall when she was around 7-8 months old. They were going where they needed/wanted to go anyway, so I'd just let her get behind them and "push" them in that direction. Then she got a lot of time pushing sheep off feed bunks over the past few months and all that was enough driving training (with some training of flank commands) to enable her to do a P/N course at the Bluegrass (okay, it wasn't beautiful, but she was able to drive and do a short cross drive). And that reminds me, RBM, if you can find practical work/tasks for your dog to do, it can help not only with training things like driving but also with her attitude toward work. Some dogs just can't take endless drilling if they don't see a "point" to it. Setting up practical tasks and then letting her do them, even if not always perfectly (don't allow super sloppy work, obviously), may go a long way toward stopping some of the sniffing behavior/bad reaction to pressure.

 

J.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Working with Cord has taught me to watch for the teeniest signs that the pressure is getting in the way of clear thought and focus. with Cord, if I miss the early signs, I'll lose my dog pretty quickly. Now that my eyes are somewhat open, I see it in other dogs I work.

 

If I see it, I quickly encourage the dog to dog something I know will engage him - Cord needs different things at different time - usually something to do with a short fast flank - Ben likes to be shooshed on - Gus came with a pressure release valve programmed in if you put a bit of pressure on the sheep, and I'm trying to train that into Rocky and Ted.

 

The paradigm I'm working with right now is a hierarchy of what a dog needs, to interact properly with the sheep. Without these, training's not going to very constructive. First, instinct - if the dog's got no reason to be out there, the dog will just shut down if any pressure occurs. By instinct I mean, is it engaged, is the dog paying attention to the sheep, is the dog keen to work? I'd start here with this dog - go back to working really close where you can enccourage her to experiment a bit and loosen up - just silent walkabouts with just corrections when she's wrong.

 

Second, distance - correct flanks. I can't tell you how many times I've been to clinics where the handler explained some complex problem with the outrun, then had the instructor spend all the time working on cleaning up the flanks right at hand, and suddenly the dog's confidence on the outrun was restored. I've seen this numerous times with my own dogs. If something's wrong and just not responding to simple correction, it's time to take a step back. I might not necessarily ditch the driving work, but I'd look very, very carefully at whether your dog's flanks are suffering.

 

Third, balance/pace. When you get the first two going correctly, most of the time this one falls in line. Rocky's taught me a lot about not jumping to this point when the first two aren't right yet. His abilities fell into place almost in reverse order, which confused me a lot until I did some talking with those with more experience. It helps a lot to know what not to panic over and what to work on.

 

Good luck!

[r b m]

I appreciate all of your comments. Sienna is definitely keen and engaged by the sheep, I wouldn't be doing this if she weren't. I've heard walk abouts mentioned on here before, and I can infer what they are for the most part. But can someone expand on it? How many sheep? What are you looking for, for the dog to hold the sheep to you? Do you work on some flanking? We move the sheep from time to time but it's mostly to set them up for an initial outrun. My trainer will usually use one of her dogs after that to set them.

[stockdogranch]

OK--walkabouts...you take a group of sheep--doesn't matter how many. I vary it from a group of 5 or so to a group of 50, and anything in between. You just walk--usually initally backwards to make sure the dog is doing right--staying behind the sheep, not coming too hard or too fast, etc., and eventually you just walk facing forward, when you can trust the dog to be pretty much correct. And you just walk--making big wide, sweeping S turns, square military-type turns, whatever, all around whatever area you have, the bigger, the better. This serves a number of purposes: 1) the dog has to stay behind the sheep, and when you use varying groups of sheep, begins to learn to "feel" the sheep and "read" the sheep, so it begins to understand what kind of distance to keep behind the sheep so they don't pass you, and begins to read the pressure s/he puts on various groups of sheep. 2) the dog has to constantly re-position behind the sheep as you change direction, so it learns to balance. If you take a little step in towards the dog as you make one of your turns, you help it to learn to square its flanks, also. Mostly it gets the dog comfortable with moving stock, and teaches it a sense of "self" in relation to the stock--how much presence it has, etc. Generally when I do walkabouts, I don't say much to the dog at all--maybe every once in a while, a "take time" if it's coming on too hard and fast. It teaches the dog to think--by not giving the flank commands, it has to decide/feel where the balance is. Usually, when a dog has spent some time doing walkabouts, it becomes a very comfortable thing--doesn't take a lot heavy, stressful brain work, so it's a good exercise to do after doing something that is stressful for the dog. It can help the dog to relax, and still be in control of the stock. I really like dogs to get in miles and miles of walkabouts. In fact, I even do them in the dark with my pups when they are at a fairly beginning level--I don't talk, just occasionally jingle my keys or something in my pocket to make sure they know where I am. The main idea is for the dog to always be in a position to bring the stock to you.

 

Not sure if this makes much sense--it's kinda late for me...

Anna

[stockdogranch]

Julie:

 

I did something similar with Lark...

 

Amazing how just a little exposure to the idea of pushing them away from you results in really easy learning to drive, huh? Good for you for getting around the BG course. How old is Larky?

 

Anna

[Laurae]

Anna, what about the dog who is always wanting to come to the head? Do you give an "ach" or just step into the dog so he has to turn to balance the other way? I initially had a tough time with this with Taz, mainly because I didn't do nearly enough of these walkabouts while he was starting out, and while it's not an issue now, he does still want to wear a lot when we do this. Funnily enough, he drives pretty well and does not wear excessively when I'm not right there walking with him. Any thoughts?

 

OK--walkabouts...you take a group of sheep--doesn't matter how many. I vary it from a group of 5 or so to a group of 50, and anything in between. You just walk--usually initally backwards to make sure the dog is doing right--staying behind the sheep, not coming too hard or too fast, etc., and eventually you just walk facing forward, when you can trust the dog to be pretty much correct. And you just walk--making big wide, sweeping S turns, square military-type turns, whatever, all around whatever area you have, the bigger, the better. This serves a number of purposes: 1) the dog has to stay behind the sheep, and when you use varying groups of sheep, begins to learn to "feel" the sheep and "read" the sheep, so it begins to understand what kind of distance to keep behind the sheep so they don't pass you, and begins to read the pressure s/he puts on various groups of sheep. 2) the dog has to constantly re-position behind the sheep as you change direction, so it learns to balance. If you take a little step in towards the dog as you make one of your turns, you help it to learn to square its flanks, also. Mostly it gets the dog comfortable with moving stock, and teaches it a sense of "self" in relation to the stock--how much presence it has, etc. Generally when I do walkabouts, I don't say much to the dog at all--maybe every once in a while, a "take time" if it's coming on too hard and fast. It teaches the dog to think--by not giving the flank commands, it has to decide/feel where the balance is. Usually, when a dog has spent some time doing walkabouts, it becomes a very comfortable thing--doesn't take a lot heavy, stressful brain work, so it's a good exercise to do after doing something that is stressful for the dog. It can help the dog to relax, and still be in control of the stock. I really like dogs to get in miles and miles of walkabouts. In fact, I even do them in the dark with my pups when they are at a fairly beginning level--I don't talk, just occasionally jingle my keys or something in my pocket to make sure they know where I am. The main idea is for the dog to always be in a position to bring the stock to you.

 

Not sure if this makes much sense--it's kinda late for me...

Anna

[stockdogranch]

what about the dog who is always wanting to come to the head?

 

I started to answer this earlier this morning, but then all he** broke loose. Anyway, when the dog starts to come around, say, on my left, I stick the crook out to that side, and walk directly into it. So, yes, I step into the dog's path, which allows him to go back to balance. With a dog that is really strong to go to the head, I would do a lot of quick direction changes like that while on the walkabout. That keeps the dog always thinking, and always repositioning to get to balance. As for wearing, I use the lie down to build distance between the dog and the sheep--it's kind of artificial at first--you're making the dog be right rather than allowing him to find it, but usually pretty quickly they figure it out and learn to slow down. So when you build some distance between the dog and the sheep, the dog is always coming in straight behind the sheep. Wearing is usually a case of the dog coming in too fast, so it gets too clase, and it knows not to bust through the sheep, so it has nowhere else to go but to "wing and wang" back and forth behind the sheep. If you can get the dog to slow down, and again, with some dogs, you have to do it kind of artifically at first, then it can begin to feel its sheep and learn pace and to read the sheep. Not sure if this is making any sense, as it's late, and it's been an incredibly long day!

Anna

[r b m]

Thanks for explaining the walkabout. We've done this once, about a month ago on 20 or so sheep, and my dog did really well. She kept the balance and didn't freak out and cut in on her flanks. She did however put a little too much pressure at one point and one of the lambs split off, she did a nice job gathering it back to the herd. I'm sure we'll get a chance to do it again soon.

 

I had a lesson last night, and I'm really glad my trainer is in tune with what's going on with my dog. She basically explained that every dog is going to have a bad day, and that she's looked a little bored lately. So we did some really small pen work with up-close flanking. We'd let the sheep shoot out of the pen, and then have her gather them back up and pen. This definitely helped Sienna become more engaged. We went back to our outrun for the second part of the lesson and she looked fantastic. I was a lot more animated, which I'm sure helped. Also, and you all have told me this before, using a matter of fact voice on the 'get back/corrections' makes a world of difference. I need to remember to be calm out there, no one(esp. dogs) respects panic and frustration, and I truly believe a dog can feel this even without the handler saying a word.

[Chesney's Girl]

Richard... Good questions! I learned alot from this thread