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dumb question about pit bulls and BC's


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Just curious i was walking my dogs today

and a man walking what lloked like a pit bull

walked by us (mikey and Lucy) Mikey did his usual hi i love everybody let me lick you. As he got close to the pit bull it growled and the man said "i wouldn't do that or he is going to take a bite out of you"

How would you guys respond to this episode. Being a male i was offended and felt defensive like in my head I was thinking "you think your so tuff with your pit bull" I reacted by pulling mikey back and not saying anything.

what would you guys do?

if that dog attacked my border collies could they defend themselves? Would Lucy step in?

Just curious I guess its my male instinct to step up, and i feel embarassed that i didn't say anything and just walked away?

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Being a female, I'd laugh at him and hope that it hurts his macho ego...and I'd make sure to show him I'm not afraid of his pit bull (which would be true - the benefits of being nuts ), but I'd have been p*ssed off, too.

 

I suppose someone who's better at verbal fighting than I am could make him feel bad about having no control over his dog and not being the real leader of his pack.

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Hi Echo.

 

I wouldn't be offended at all - sounds like the guy knows that his pitty wouldn't appreciate Mikey's attention (even though Mikey was intending to be friendly), and was letting you know ahead of an incident. I'd be grateful to him. Many of the bull breeds - including Staffordshires, Amstaffs, pitt bulls, and Bulldogs - are often not friendly towards other dogs (although they're often great with people.) It's really great when owners of those dogs - or any other non-sociable dog - are responsible enough to warn other dog owners not to let their dogs get into danger. I probably would have wanted to thank the guy for the heads-up.

 

And what you did actually do was exactly the right thing to do, for Mikey's safety and yours, and for Mikey's education. He needs to know that not all dogs want him coming up to say "Hi".

 

My previous Border Collie was somewhat fear-aggressive with dogs he didn't know, and had a VERY large personal space, and I was constantly having to ask other people not to let their dogs get in my dog's face.

 

It's nice that Mikey is friendly, but for his own safety, I wouldn't be letting him go right up to other dogs without checking with their owners first if that was OK.

 

You probably already know that of all the dogs you don't want Mikey to be getting into any kind of ruckus with, the bull breeds are the very last. Those guys have immensely powerful jaws, and can do huge amounts of damage - and remember that they aren't bred for backing down.

 

And the short answer is - No, your Border Collie would NOT be able to defend himself - he could get badly damaged, and you probably would too, trying to get Mikey out of the pitty's jaws. Those guys do not readily let go. Lucy could have tried to get involved too - and that could have been really, really nasty.

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It's not like there aren't pleanty of BCs that have bad temperments. It's just that since he had a pit, you remembered it. If his dog was on a leash and not lunging at your dog then there is nothing wrong with what he did. He warned you (I feel that was being responsible) so that there was no damage. Your dog didn't need to be in that dog's face.

Like I said, if it had been a BC you probably wouldn't have thought much about it. I see BC's tied out at trials that lunge and bark at you everytime you walk by. It irritates me but no one thinks anything of it.

Try not to take it personally. He had his dog under control and he was obeying a leash law. He just wanted to enjoy his walk with his dog just like you. There is no rule that says all dogs have to be friends.

Jenny Glen

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Tassie... Jenny... I love you guys...! [weeps with gratitude] 89.gif Great posts.

 

Echo wrote:

Mikey did his usual hi i love everybody let me lick you.
The dog you met may have been very dog-aggressive (in which case the owner was doing you a favor by warning you off), or he may simply have been immune to Mikey's charms. It happens ohwell.gif Here's a link to Suzanne Clothier's article, He Just Wants to Say "Hi!" From the article:
My experience has been that it is owners of breeds considered non-aggressive that cause the most problems in dog-to-dog interactions simply by being unaware that their dog is rude. To the owners of non-aggressive breeds, there doesn't appear to be any thought that rudeness can take many forms. Anyone can recognize that a dog lunging and snarling is being rude. Far too few folks recognize that simply getting into another's dog space - however sweetly and quietly - is just as rude in the world of dogs. Owners of rude dogs do not perceive their dogs' actions as rude; they see only "friendliness," as if the behavior for greeting people is the same as greeting another dog - it's not! Thus the classic line, "He's only trying to say ?hi!'"
Echo, it may also be that the guy you met was just a jerk who likes to intimidate people with his snarly dog. In any case, you did the right thing by keeping your dog safe and moving on.

 

I've watched my pit bulls play fight with each other and with my border collies. It's fascinating to watch Bounce (the dog in my avatar) and border collie Luna romp and wrestle---each weighs 35 lb, but the resemblance ends there :rolleyes: Believe me, pibble vs. sheepdog is like Jackie Chan vs. Barney Fife ohwell.gif

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Please let me chime in on the wisdom of that article!

 

If the guy was just walking along with his dog under control, minding his own business, then that would be no different from what I myself have told people many times while working with an aggressive dog. It has nothing to do with ego and everything to do with keeping people and other dogs safe.

 

Of course he may have been a jerk, but from your post it sounds like he was just being honest.

 

You asked what we would do? Well I would not allow my dogs to approach another dog without permission from the owner. It really is rude, and it can be dangerous too.

 

As a side note for anyone reading this, it's critical that kids are taught the same thing. Don't approach a dog without the owner's permission.

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Originally posted by echo44:

what would you guys do?

 

if that dog attacked my border collies could they defend themselves? Would Lucy step in?

Just curious I guess its my male instinct to step up, and i feel embarassed that i didn't say anything and just walked away?

I'd do what you did, get my dog the heck away from the pit and move on. Not being there, I can't say whether the guy was being a jerk or just trying to prevent an altercation (though he could be both, I suppose). Either way, there are too many crazies out there. What if you had said something to get his goat and he set the dog on yours? :eek:

 

If the pit had attacked, your dogs would probably tried to defend themselves the best they could but it would have been no match. Real dog fights are awful things. You were wise to get away from the situation.

 

Mikey sounds a lot like my 9 month old BC. Quinn loves every person and every dog he meets,wanting to shower them with kisses. At the club we often let our dogs romp together and Quinn is not universally loved by his fellow dogs. He's very submissive but it's often a high energy, almost frantic submissiveness that some dogs find irritating. They pretty much tell him "Go be submissive somewhere else."

 

When we're walking around the neighborhood, I'd really rather not have any interaction with other dogs. I mistrust the average owner and his dog, to be frank. I prefer to choose the dogs I let mine greet and play with. I'm probably getting overprotective in my old age

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actually he approached me and as others have said i think it was his attitude that offended with me.

It was kind of like " hey man look what i have this is a pitbull and your weak dogs better stay clear or my superstar will tear him apart!"

Being a man i felt challenged but i am proud i walked away with out saying a word that took strength.

My own feeling is no dog fight would be pretty and although pit bulls have strong jaws border collies are not docile. I have seen Lucy correct other dogs and it ain't pretty and what always is amazing to me is her speed i seldom get the oppurtunity to actual see it because it is at the speed of light!

but back to the topic this is why so many pit bulls get a bad name its their owners. There are a few dog aggressive dogs on the block and the owners will cross the street when we approach often saying "sorry he is not friendly" But this guy was kind of flaunting. oh well the more i think about it the only solution ever is to stay away even if it means swallowing my pride.

PS

I also have breed pride and all of us know a fierce reved up border colllie is something that should not be taken lightly and thats is also why i was offended because this guys attitude was kind of like be carefull of your little fluffy dog because i have a macho dog :mad:

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I think I would have been a little offended by that tone as well, but you definitely did the right thing. No need to start anything.

 

Oreo's always been one of those dog-aggressive dogs too (on-leash, at least; off leash she's just snarky and wants to be left alone). So were someone to come up to me I too would warn them to stay back - but I wouldn't have said my dog would "take a bite out of you". :rolleyes:

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black watch

i don't think it holds true for all border collies and all pit bulls

"jacki chan vs barney fife" although i love the analogy!!!! :rolleyes:

If this dog attacked mikey, Mikey would be in trouble. Lucy a different story!! She is lightining fast and can jump to the height of my head as an after thought. When Mikey and Lucy go at it she takes him down effortlessly. Last year at the beach a pit bull swiped at her(the owner no where to be found!!) I saw Lucy move but thats it it was so fast! and than i heard the pit bull crying and it ran off!! I don't think Lucy see's pit bull or could care less she see another dog.

My friend here at work today made a great point.

If this guy knew he had a dog dog aggresive dog he should have crossed the street before i got to him to avoid any problems! I think the men who read this post will understand how i feel. Its some kind of defect all of us men suffer that makes us want to say "oh yeah well see about that Ill show you"

The same defect that makes us want to have the fastest car even though the speed limit is 65, or the reason I buy tools which are overkill for the job i need them for etc.

However these post have been very helpful for me to let out steam and the previous post which said by confronting him i go DOWN to his level. So next time our paths cross i will ignore him and keep my dogs away especially Lucy in order to protect his dog :D

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Hey, at least it was just a walk down the street.

 

Fergie and I do CROP Walk every year (Fergie gets her own sponsors - this year 9 cats, 4 dogs, and 2 snakes). Every time, we come across other dogs, either in the huge crowd at the start or along the walk. Most are really nice. Fergie, of course, is on a mission and doesn't even stop to sniff. She does let other dogs sniff her, and always stops - or at least slows down - to let children pat her.

 

But, I swear, each year we come across several people who tell us to keep away because, honest, "My dog doesn't like other dogs or even people."

 

Now, why in heaven's name would you take an unfriendly dog into a crowd of several thousand people, including small children, and hundreds of friendly dogs?

 

What's the Yorkshire line? "Nowt so queer as folk."

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Don't fool yourselves. A pit bull that wants to do damage will make short work of your border collie. They have been bred for generations to do just that. Showing a picture of a border collie working a cow doesn't prove your point. Do you know that the reason the name is pit BULL is because they were orginally used for baiting bulls in a ring for sport? They were to bite the nose and hang on no matter where the bull threw their bodies. Even today there are cattle people that cross pits with BCs to get more bite. I don't like to play up that side of Pit Bulls 'cause they get enough bad press already, but don't be so nieve that you think your BC would stand a chance with a pit bull that was serious. (there are pleanty of non agressive pits out there. that is most likely the dog seen on the beach) We are smarter owners than that. Don't get the macho attitude going. That is what ruined the Pit bulls. Our dog's atributes lie in their brains not brawn. Be proud of that.

That said, I have a GSD that is fine with other dogs unless they get in her face. Speaking from experience, if I am out on a walk with her and someone lets their dog go to the end of it's leash so that it can get in her face, I would say very much the same thing that guy did and I would be irritated when I said it. My dog minds her own buisness but because she is a Ger. Shepherd, you would think I was a macho jerk. Conversly, I have a BC who is a wonderful dog, never bugs other dogs, never fights. He won't even run up to see another dog in friendship. He's just his own guy and he has had more than one bad tempered border collie attack him even tho he was minding his own buisness. No one thinks much of that because it is another border collie.

I don't think we should get into breed steriotypes. This guy had a dog on a leash and he warned you not to let your dog bother it (which your dog was in the process of doing). He didn't go out of his way to bait you or stick around being tough. Don't take it personally. Just be glad that you have a wonderful dog that you can relax around and not have to worry about it atacking other dogs. Believe me, I find my easy going border collie more wonderful and relaxing to be around than my GSD, but I love her and I'm not going put her to sleep when she can mind her own buisness and coexist with other dogs.

Jenny

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I agree with Tassie, Jennifer, and Luisa for sure! It's dangerous to allow your dog to approach a strange dog - period - without permission before the dogs are in each other's faces. You've got to be a defensive dog owner to avoid your pup getting hurt. I do understand your arguement, but honestly it's better to be safe than sorry.

 

I can say from experience, BC's are not going to be able to fight off a truly aggressive Bully dog. Gonzo can definitely be stern with other dogs, but when he was jumped by a Rottie he could barely escape. I'm actually glad he didn't do any damage to the Rottie, because that says a lot about his bite inhibition. He mostly just yelped and got out from under the Rottie and RAN poor kid.

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Well, the owner of the pit sounds like a real butthead, since it sounds as if he intentionally initiated contact between the dogs, waited until hostilities began and then told you his dog could kick your dog's a$$ - which sounds like picking a fight, to me. However, I do think discretion is the better part of valor here, so good for you for walking away from his posturing. (I usually amuse myself in such situations by privately wondering what this kind of person is compensating for... some insecurity about the size of one's brain? or perhaps some "other" personal dimension? :rolleyes: I find this makes it easier for me to let it roll off my back - but that might just be me.) Unfortunately the poor pit is probably in absolutely the wrong hands, but there's nothing you can do about that.

 

It is true that Pitbulls and other bulldogs have absolutely enormous bite strength, though, and can do very serious damage if they ever do bite. I'd say the BCs best defense in a fight with a dog like that would be speed - if they can't get a tooth on, they can't do any harm. I have seen dogs killed by other dogs, and it's horrific the amount of damage that can be done in no time flat. In some ways it's even more horrifying seeing the survivors, since the suffering can be awful. Thank your stars you had the presence of mind and the self-control to not put your BC in a situation where he had to pay for anyone else's ego.

 

BTW, Nancy, I'm with you on the agressive dogs at public events - do these people WANT to be sued? Are they TRYING to get their dogs euthanized for killing or injuring someone else's dog, or for ripping open some child? ARGH. Grrr. :mad: I also have a problem with the opposite sort of scenario, though; people who go out of their way, it seems, to get bitten. I used to have a little viciously-biting terrier who was, unfortunately, cute as all get-out. One day I was outside with him letting him pee in my yard and a passerby walked along the road. My dog ran to the end of the drive - not OFF it, mind you, but within about 8 feet of the end - and barked inquiringly at the passerby, who immediately decided to pet him. I yelled (as I was running up the drive) "Don't touch him! He bites!" but the guy goes, "Oh, he won't bite me!" as if he either knows my dog better than I do or is somehow magically immune to dog bites, and made as if to touch the dog - walking onto my property to do so. I said, "Yes, he will!" and juuust as I got up there the dog flattened his ears and started to snarl and show teeth. Luckily the guy had apparently heard something in my voice that let him know that I was in deadly earnest and had paused in mid-crouch, just out of the bite zone. He seemed both bewildered and hurt that this adorable little button-eyed dog would be willing to bite him, as if it were some personal affront to him that the dog was a biter. He couldn't seem to get it that some dogs just DO bite, no matter how nice a person you are. Naturally I never took that dog off my property without a leash (since he only weighed 16# I could pretty much yank him airborne by his little harness should anything happen, and once he was in my arms I had good control), and I NEVER took him to public groupings invloving dogs (apart from my own and a few pre-tested doggie pals he would tolerate) and children - or even adults, except for those who could be trusted not to get stupid about it. He was an outstanding watchdog, I have to say - he wouldn't let ANYONE in my house except me, even people he liked very well. Even food bribes wouldn't cut it. He was like a vicious little wolverine at the door if anyone but me tried it - unless I told him it was okay, at which point he reverted to a waggy little bounce-boy, although still not safe to pet without my supervision.

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AK and nancy,

 

I'm not sure I agree...

 

I mean, sure, any dog who has the tendency to lash out unexpectedly and without reason and is growling at everything and everyone at every turn, should not be let in amongst crowds of people, by any means.

 

But some dogs just simply don't take well to strangers, and might be too fearful. Others might have a trigger of some sort, like petting between it's shoulders. This person also could have been working with their dog on accepting crowded/stressful situations, and didn't want the dog to take on more than it could handle. My point is, if an owner knows their dog, and they know their dog is fine in a crowd as long as no person/dog confronts their dog, then whats the harm as long as they warn others to stay away?

 

I run into people at pet stores that have warned me to go the other way, or not to aproach, and I respect it amiably. In a good light, they're being a good dog owner by taking their dog out with them, letting it get some exercise and recreation, even if it doesn't like other people/dogs. And these dogs I've seen have always been simply quiet...alert, but not gowling/baring teeth, lunging at passerbys. Thats the sort of behavior I wouldn't want to bring out in front of people. But if you know your dog, and you know your dog will remain well behaved in light of people just not petting it and not allowing other dogs to greet it, then I see no problem taking him to public places. Its just one step up from having a dog-agressive dog. You have to not only warn other people to keep their dogs away, you just have to ask them please not to pet your dog, because they aren't very friendly, sorry. The way I see it, at least they aren't leaving it home, all tied up or alone all day, and the dog gets the chance to get more used to these situations.

 

What would be your response to one of our members, if they had a dog/people aggressive dog, and they took it out to a local park for a walk, and while warning people that their dog was not friendly, and would they please not pet it, some one told them that they should not bring the dog out in public? There are not many places you can walk a dog without encountering people. I find many people in this situation with a helplessly dog/people aggressive dog somewhat admirable with their dedication to their dog...because not many people are willing and eager to handle and work with a dog that hates everyone/everything. I know I certainly couldn't, with my lifestyle. Many of these dogs get put down, as a result.

 

While this may not apply to every aggressive dog/owner, I'm just saying, that owners of aggressive dogs *can* be good people too. :rolleyes:

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Originally posted by SincereArtisan:

This person also could have been working with their dog on accepting crowded/stressful situations, and didn't want the dog to take on more than it could handle. My point is, if an owner knows their dog, and they know their dog is fine in a crowd as long as no person/dog confronts their dog, then whats the harm as long as they warn others to stay away?

That's a good point that if you want to rehabilitate an agressive dog, you need to get him out in public and social sitauations. You want to carefully work you way up to being around a lot of people and dogs, though. I'd say it's a matter of making sure that you don't overface your dog and also that you are able to stay on top of things while you work on issues. For instance, at a park where there aren't swarms of people or a pet store where the isles are relatively open, the dog can be more easily managed and unwanted interactions avoided. I think going someplace that is very crowded with such a dog is asking for trouble, unless you're very confident that he could handle another dog, kid or adult unexpectedly invading his space.

 

Years ago, I showed a dog in obedience at McCormick Place in Chicago. There was wall to wall people. It was difficult to make your way to the ring. I can't tell you how many times I'd look down at my dog to find one or even two kids petting him. If he hadn't been friendly and incredibly confident, someone could have ended up getting nipped or worse. It wasn't the place for a dog with issues.

 

That's an extreme example, but in crowds you often run into impulsive kids (or adults) who are suddenly all over your dog. I once had a toddler rush up to my dog and fling her arms around him while the parent simply stood and watched. I was flabbergasted that she didn't begin to see the risk to her child -- not from that particular dog (thank goodness) but from that type of behavior. I had to disengage the toddler from the dog myself and say "No, no. Don't run up to strange dogs." I still don't think the mother got it. I had to freak out all on my own that time

 

On my walks around the neighborhood, I know I can direct children and adults into interactions that my suspicious Lhasa or shy sheltie will tolerate. With Quinn, my only concern is keeping him from jumping up to shower his new best friend(s) with kisses. At a crowded event, the only dog I'd be comfortable taking would be my happy, happy Quinn. The other two stay home where everyone (including them) is better off.

 

I think you need to balance out what you're working on with the dog and how much you can really control the situation.

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I think of it as defensive driving and always call out to the other owner (Durga is wild to greet other dogs): Is your dog friendly to other dogs? Then I approach slowly.

 

As for the guy thinking he's got the toughest dog on the block, well, what does it matter? Who cares what he thinks?

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Echo - this is interesting. I still have a hard time believing that men and women think differently despite enormous evidence to the contrary perhaps because I've been immersed in so many contexts where there were gender neutral behavioral norms.

 

I think the issue here is "Risk Management".

 

My habit in the past has always been to move my dog from the side that the approching dog or small child was on to the opposite side, sliding my hand down the leash so that I had tight control. If the approaching person stops and smiles and says is it alright? Then I allowed the experiment.

 

With Meg as a puppy I've been more wary but less controlling trying to balance her exposure and training with my need to manage risk. But as she's getting older, and especially after reading this thread I'll be slipping her over to the non conflict side from now on.

 

Meg is torn between "Oh Puleeze kiss me and love me you wonderful new human" and "Hello Dog, I'm getting as low down on the floor as I possibly can, all I want to do is touch cheeks so that I can manage my fear of you."

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How would you guys respond to this episode. Being a male i was offended and felt defensive like in my head I was thinking "you think your so tuff with your pit bull" I reacted by pulling mikey back and not saying anything.

what would you guys do?

You did the correct thing by pulling your dog back! No matter what kind of attitude or ego that individual had, shouldn?t let that get in the way of being responsible. It might have angered you by his arrogance, just know his dog was a ?pet bull? cur. So you can silently laugh to yourself every time you think of, or see that dog walking. A APBT will never growl, bark, or show any kinds of threat display. They?ve been breed for centuries to enjoy physical confrontations they don?t try to avoid them, which is what the threat display is for. Gameness to the APBT is what herding ability is to this breed. They?re the only animal on the planet that has it-even though specifically breed for it, very, very few have it.

 

if that dog attacked my border collies could they defend themselves? Would Lucy step in?
If his cur dog attacked, your dog would immediately start to cry and whine. Unlike most canines an APBT doesn?t bite and bite and bite, they bite and hold only letting go, better their bite. If your other dog Lucy did ?step it? odds are it would be to assist the other dog. Being there (all dogs) natural instinct if to ?attack? the weak, hurt, animal and odds are that would have been your dog Mikey that would have been whining.

 

Just curious I guess its my male instinct to step up, and i feel embarassed that i didn't say anything and just walked away?
Nothing to feel embarrassed about-you did the correct thing! I?ve been out exercising my APBT?s numerous times and because of some irresponsible owner, have to carrying my dog, to avoid situations. Talk about embarrassed-try carrying a struggling APBT all the while having some yappy ankle biting toy breed, or some other mutt on your heels chasing you off.
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