Scout's Mom Posted April 4, 2007 Report Share Posted April 4, 2007 Hi BC'ers, Help! I adopted a stray BC puppy by default (couldn't find her a home) and am having training problems with her. She's about six months old(?) and is very barky, nippy, and generally frenetic. She misbehaved so badly at the vet's this morning that they put a "handle with caution" note in her file. I've had her for about a month and have started clicker training on my own and begin a group obedience class in a few weeks. Scout gets an hour or more of heavy exercise every day (hiking, running, and fetching), after which she is much, much calmer. She's learned to sit, down, shake, and is working on stay -- but she is defiant when she's not calm enough to pay attention. She is getting spayed today and has been thoroughly checked for any health problems. I have two docile, grown-up labs and they play with and mentor Scout, so I have a bit of dog help. I'm just beginning to be concerned that I won't be able to train this dog to be a good citizen -- I don't know what kind of life she had before I found her, but I imagine it wasn't great (she was abandoned at the city dump and someone obviously encouraged bite play with her). Any suggestions, short of buying five acres and a herd of sheep? Pulling out my hair, Scout's Mom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotobridget Posted April 4, 2007 Report Share Posted April 4, 2007 Hi BC'ers, Help! I adopted a stray BC puppy by default (couldn't find her a home) and am having training problems with her. She's about six months old(?) and is very barky, nippy, and generally frenetic. She misbehaved so badly at the vet's this morning that they put a "handle with caution" note in her file. I've had her for about a month and have started clicker training on my own and begin a group obedience class in a few weeks. Scout gets an hour or more of heavy exercise every day (hiking, running, and fetching), after which she is much, much calmer. She's learned to sit, down, shake, and is working on stay -- but she is defiant when she's not calm enough to pay attention. She is getting spayed today and has been thoroughly checked for any health problems. I have two docile, grown-up labs and they play with and mentor Scout, so I have a bit of dog help. I'm just beginning to be concerned that I won't be able to train this dog to be a good citizen -- I don't know what kind of life she had before I found her, but I imagine it wasn't great (she was abandoned at the city dump and someone obviously encouraged bite play with her). Any suggestions, short of buying five acres and a herd of sheep? Pulling out my hair, Scout's Mom Aw hah! My Liberty is the same age as Scout and also has a big lab mix brother to play with. Don't lose hope, I've heard that 4-7 months are the stubborn months. If your dog is high energy, it might not be a bad idea to give her vigorous excercise before working with her--or taking her to the vet. And i am sure she's not being defiant when she isn't calm--its just taht there is something much more interesting going on around her. Do you work with her in a quiet, distraction-free place? How long do you work with her at a time? Libby and I train several times a day for less than three minutes. I've also found that rewarding her with treats isn't as effective as clapping my hands, hugging her, or squealing like an idiot saying good Libby, good 'command' Does Scout boss her big Lab siblings around? Liberty corners Justice and attempts to Herd him places. Its rather funny as he is a lab/bloodhound mix and is 100 pounds or more of wimpiness--and he lets her. (On a side note--when i want Libby to calm down, we pick her up and pet her head saying 'calm' in a soothing voice until she does calm down. It seems to work, distracting her from whatever excited her in the first place. You might try it.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scout's Mom Posted April 4, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 4, 2007 Aw hah! My Liberty is the same age as Scout and also has a big lab mix brother to play with. Don't lose hope, I've heard that 4-7 months are the stubborn months. If your dog is high energy, it might not be a bad idea to give her vigorous excercise before working with her--or taking her to the vet. And i am sure she's not being defiant when she isn't calm--its just taht there is something much more interesting going on around her. Do you work with her in a quiet, distraction-free place? How long do you work with her at a time? Libby and I train several times a day for less than three minutes. I've also found that rewarding her with treats isn't as effective as clapping my hands, hugging her, or squealing like an idiot saying good Libby, good 'command' Does Scout boss her big Lab siblings around? Liberty corners Justice and attempts to Herd him places. Its rather funny as he is a lab/bloodhound mix and is 100 pounds or more of wimpiness--and he lets her. (On a side note--when i want Libby to calm down, we pick her up and pet her head saying 'calm' in a soothing voice until she does calm down. It seems to work, distracting her from whatever excited her in the first place. You might try it.) I'm really bothered by the biting and nipping behaviors, I've never had a dog that had a "caution" put on their chart and I'm embarrassed. Grabbing her snout and doing a lip roll doesn't do anything and I'm hesitant to do a scruff shake (though one of my labs does this when Scout is bothering her and it's very effective). We do an hour or two of intense exercise with the "big girls" (the labs) and then I try to do a half hour one-on-one with Scout on obedience tasks. She can't concentrate more than a half hour and starts nipping, rolling on her back to play dead, etc. Perhaps 30 minutes is too ambitious for a training session; I'm accustomed to training very compliant and eager labs. Scout plays boldly with the labs when we're exercising, but is subservient inside the house. The big girls don't hesitate to do mommy-type disciplining when she gets really wild. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shelb'smum Posted April 4, 2007 Report Share Posted April 4, 2007 my Shelby went through a TERROR stage that ended last month (thank god) where she would NOT listen and was completely an insane evil little puppy!! she is 8 months and her act has turned around!! don't go crazy yet!! just keep working with her! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scout's Mom Posted April 4, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 4, 2007 my Shelby went through a TERROR stage that ended last month (thank god) where she would NOT listen and was completely an insane evil little puppy!! she is 8 months and her act has turned around!! don't go crazy yet!! just keep working with her! Thank you for the replies; they are reassuring. I really like Scout and am happy (most of the time) that I'm able to provide a loving home, but the vet visit this morning was a nightmare and I've been beating myself up about keeping her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaisingRiver Posted April 4, 2007 Report Share Posted April 4, 2007 Don't worry about the 'caution' on her vet chart. Mine has to be muzzled when they give her shots because she will try to bite - and my BC is an excellent citizen and well trained dog (would pass her CGC if I tested her). It's just a vet thing. I know there are other BCs on this board with similar vet issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. Festerling Posted April 4, 2007 Report Share Posted April 4, 2007 I'm hesitant to do a scruff shake (though one of my labs does this when Scout is bothering her and it's very effective). Why? As long as you don't overdo it and am as accurate as your lab is. Of course that is always the trick... But all kidding aside. If she likes to biteplay then use that in her training. Get her to focus on a toy to play with and everytime she gets out of line and tries to bite you either give her the toy or take it away. As far as the vet is concerned, she will probably get over that with some training and age. Main thing is that they also do need to take some time with her. For that one it would help to have your vets cooperation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
painted_ponies Posted April 4, 2007 Report Share Posted April 4, 2007 I have a six month old "wild child" myself. I hope it gets better. Tell me more about Scout's biting and nipping behaviors, and what she did to merit a "handle with caution" sticker on her folder at the vet. Does she seem to be biting/nipping out of aggression, fear, or is she just over-exuberant? I do think a half-hour is a little bit too long for a baby BC to concentrate. I'd break it into smaller segments. BC are very bright but get bored quickly and do not generally have a Lab's tolerance for repetition. ETA: I love her name, BTW. I just finished re-reading "To Kill A Mockingbird" last week, and I thought at the time what a good name Scout would make for a BC girl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AK dog doc Posted April 4, 2007 Report Share Posted April 4, 2007 I'm guessing the nipping/defiance/rolling on the back thing after a certain length of training time is her getting stressed. She may be young enough that she needs shorter training sessions. FWIW, when training my BC pups, I've noticed that at certain ages they could only take in so much new info, and then they needed some time to process it. It stayed in their heads better if I gave them some down-time to think it over. Also, too much repitition of something they already knew would bore them, and then they'd be fractious and distracted and fretting, won't concentrate and actively want something else to do. Just some thoughts. And bless you for giving this little foundling a home and working to help her. You're way ahead of the curve already; most people, when confronted by dog behavior they aren't having success with, go "Stupid dog!" and never stop to think: Hmmm, maybe I need to change my training methods for this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scout's Mom Posted April 4, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 4, 2007 I have a six month old "wild child" myself. I hope it gets better. Tell me more about Scout's biting and nipping behaviors, and what she did to merit a "handle with caution" sticker on her folder at the vet. Does she seem to be biting/nipping out of aggression, fear, or is she just over-exuberant? I do think a half-hour is a little bit too long for a baby BC to concentrate. I'd break it into smaller segments. BC are very bright but get bored quickly and do not generally have a Lab's tolerance for repetition. ETA: I love her name, BTW. I just finished re-reading "To Kill A Mockingbird" last week, and I thought at the time what a good name Scout would make for a BC girl. She hasn't actually bit me or anyone at the vet's -- she is very, very mouthy naturally and gets agitated at the vet's (barking, squirming, yelling, and reaching for hands). This is just our second visit, and both visits have = needles, blood-draws, and surgery (today is spaying), so it's certainly not a happy place for her. I will break training into smaller units. I did name the puppy after the "Mockingbird" character, and it fits perfectly! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scout's Mom Posted April 4, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 4, 2007 I'm guessing the nipping/defiance/rolling on the back thing after a certain length of training time is her getting stressed. She may be young enough that she needs shorter training sessions. FWIW, when training my BC pups, I've noticed that at certain ages they could only take in so much new info, and then they needed some time to process it. It stayed in their heads better if I gave them some down-time to think it over. Also, too much repitition of something they already knew would bore them, and then they'd be fractious and distracted and fretting, won't concentrate and actively want something else to do. Just some thoughts. And bless you for giving this little foundling a home and working to help her. You're way ahead of the curve already; most people, when confronted by dog behavior they aren't having success with, go "Stupid dog!" and never stop to think: Hmmm, maybe I need to change my training methods for this one. Thank you for your thoughts! I like to think I'm a good dog mom, but the change from labs who lean against me and say "I love you, I love you" to a headstrong little BC has been a bit distressing. And I thought I entered this with open eyes, since my parents have a pack of BCs (albeit outdoor BCs who have five acres in Idaho to patrol) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo Peep Posted April 4, 2007 Report Share Posted April 4, 2007 I am so glad to see this thread as I am having trouble with my 7 month old dog, Usher. I have trained 6 other border collies and this is by far the most hard headed dog I've had. He doesn't seem to care about where I am or anything but what HE is interested in. In the house, he never leaves my side, but outside, it's his little world and so I know how you are feeling. I was begining to give up hope that he just might not live up to my expectations, but I'm glad I'm not alone. I'll keep plugging along and you do too and I'm sure we will both end up with our best friends being wonderful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HHorn Posted April 4, 2007 Report Share Posted April 4, 2007 My Gus was all teeth for the first few months. He would bite my pants legs and skirts and shoelaces, he ate about 20 holes in my carpet. He grew out of it and is a fantastic dog! The puppy days were ROUGH, but make sure he has plenty of appropriate chew toys. Kongs are great. I fill mine with peanut butter and kibble, and freeze it so it takes longer for him to eat. I kept lots of good treats around, and rewarded him like crazy when he did behaviors I like. If your vet is okay with it, and you are game, you can take him when he isn't getting shots and have everyone give him a yummy smelly treat, so he associates good things with the vets office. Good luck, I bet he will grow out of it too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beth G Posted April 4, 2007 Report Share Posted April 4, 2007 Yeah these guys can be a nightmare during those puppy months but it shall pass. When she gets out of hand have you tried "Time outs" in a nice inviting crate with some toys or treats? You don't want her to view her crate as a punishment but you do need some time out places. Also everytime mine bit I would either take away the toy, or get up and turn my back and walk away abruptly making it very unfun for the dog to act like that. As it doesn't get them anything. They quickly catch on. And this is much better for you both, and easier on you both, than the physical punishment methods are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
painted_ponies Posted April 4, 2007 Report Share Posted April 4, 2007 Ah, yes, mouthy-ness, I'm familiar. For a few months, all my pantyhose had puppy teeth holes up the back of the calves because Faith would toddle along behind me, nipping as I walked. The last time we went to the vet's, Faith also got very barky and agitated, even though she's been there practically every other weekend since I've had her - she's a shelter rescue and came with a host of minor health problems. My vet and staff just laugh at her and try and cajole her out of it - but they're country folk with a large and small animal practice, and after dealing with my neighbors' Charolais bulls I guess Faith doesn't seem like much of a problem. I would save scruff-shaking for the truly horrendous behavior, e.g. cat-chasing or other behavior that could really get someone hurt. For mouthiness and nipping I just say "aaangh" and distract her with a toy (or my other BC, poor long-suffering Violet), and if she persists I just wrap my fingers gently around her muzzle and hold it shut for a second or two (after I've extricated fingers or any other body part ). As AKdogdoc said, bless you for taking this little girl in. They really are worth it, BCs are - my Violet, who's three now, is (if I say so myself) just a perfect companion. I bet both our little terrors grow up into solid citizens before its over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaryP Posted April 4, 2007 Report Share Posted April 4, 2007 I think that BC puppies have got to be the most challenging puppies to raise. Puppyhood with my BC, Charlie, was tough. He was also VERY mouthy, strong-willed, and always on. Sometimes he'd be like a top spinning out of control. Other puppies that I've raised cannot compare to Charlie. Now, they all seem pretty calm, LOL. I'd say that it was pretty hellish until Charlie was around 9 months old or so. Now, he is a year and a half old and is a joy to have around - most of the time. He takes direction well and now knows how to "turn off." I think that if you can stick it out for a few more months, you will start to see a change for the better. I do agree that there is a period where they regress a little - at around 6 months old or so. I saw it with Charlie, too. It can be very stressful, but it will pass. I commend you for sticking it out with this puppy. Too often, people aren't willing to put in the effort and the dog ends up in a shelter or just tied up in the backyard. In the end, it will all be worth it and I predict that you will become hooked on BCs. They are truly addicting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
painted_ponies Posted April 4, 2007 Report Share Posted April 4, 2007 Hey, Mary, isn't Skittles about the same age as Faith? Has he hit the wild and wooley stage, or is he still as sweet as he was as a tiny baby? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoZo Posted April 4, 2007 Report Share Posted April 4, 2007 Our BC is very submissive, obedient, generally very well behaved, very social with people and other animals, I've never seen a sweeter creature, she is a treasure- BUT every once in a while she does that thing where she just goes berserk. Almost a Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde deal. It's always in the house or back yard. She growls at me (I want to say in a playful way, but not so much), jumps on tables, runs around the yard at 100-150 mph, acts like she would like nothing better than tear me to shreads, won't listen to anything I say and is basically just running amock. The first time this happened I was horrified- I though she might be insane. I've since learned to treat this like a tsunami: head for high ground and wait until the terror passes (about 5 minutes). She's 13 months now and these little "exhibitions" are becoming less and less frequent. She gets plenty of physical and mental excercise each day, she has a routine and seems completely happy otherwise. I guess it's just one of those Border Collie things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meg's mum Posted April 4, 2007 Report Share Posted April 4, 2007 At 16 months, I am amazed to be saying that our elegant split faced little girl is generally well behaved!. How did that happen? Don't know if our experience will help but I can certainly tell you that I have been at my wits end many times. Between six months and 12 months Meg was a bit of a bitch at times Barking: still a bit more than we'd like but we are consistent in giving her the "SHHHHH" command and the minute she stops, "GOOD Girl Meg!" Biting: still nips my ankles when she wants me to do something and I am going down stairs "LEAVE" reinforced by "GOOD Girl Meg! "suffices. She only tears up things she's allowed to tear up like paper towel rolls and empty cereal boxes. She will occasionally bite on footstool or chair in frustration still, but "LEAVE" suffices. Gone are the laundry chasing days and shoe ordering. Being annoying: Meg has FINALLY settled down into a routine. Every now and then she will paw at the walls, push balls under the furniture and paw at the furniture to get our attention. This was only minimized by vigorous "LEAVE", much silent cursing, down time in her crate and prayer and praise. We still have a bit of a task with pawing at the face and jumping up but it is not at all as bad as it was. Positive recall: Bleep. House training: Almost 100% there! Staying behind a fence she could climb or vault or a door she can paw through: 0% Exercise: We would be in terrible trouble if we didn't do three things a) two hours of hard exercise a day (the minimum); doggie daycare one day a week. I don't recommend doggie daycare as a general solution at all, but in our case it gives Meg and I a break from each other. She is exhausted when she comes home and thrilled to go. She's the favorite child and gets to play with other dogs with supervision by people that I trust. People better able to handle dog/dog interactions than I am. c) At least 1/2 hour a day doing training, games, bellychest/head scratching, ear smelling, butt fluffing etc.... Meg is mostly trained with voice, hand and face signals. She isn't a good candidate for clicker. food or toy training. If you want a better result do what I didn't do: 1) Do not give your dog freedom unless it is earned (this is a variant of Nothing In Life Is for Free). 2) Becoming really well trained yourself. 3) Don't do things that will make your pup disrespect you. BE CALM. Our sympathies and support are here on this board with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaryP Posted April 4, 2007 Report Share Posted April 4, 2007 Hey, Mary, isn't Skittles about the same age as Faith? Has he hit the wild and wooley stage, or is he still as sweet as he was as a tiny baby? Skittles has hit the "hard-headed, I'm part cattle dog" stage. He's still sweet with people, but he can be stubborn. He now has to work for everything he gets, which I probably should have done from the beginning, but he never challenged me until recently. But, he's still nothing like the holy terror that Charlie was at his age! At least Skittles mostly plays rough with other dogs; whereas Charlie thought that we were his own personal chew toy! Here's little Mr. Attitude patrolling the fence line. And here he is showing his sweet and cuddly side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted April 4, 2007 Report Share Posted April 4, 2007 Just a note about a note in the vet's file. I have two who have always had "Approach slowly" or something similar appended to their files. I have always made a point of telling any vet that either of these dogs could bite if startled or approached in an aggressive manner (or in one case, simply out of fear). I always insist that Farleigh be muzzled for any procedure since he will bite out of fear and is fearful at the vet's. Willow was afraid of anyone approaching her when I first got her. She is about 1000% better but is still cage/crate protective. Every time I have a new vet and this comes up, I have been thanked profusely for being up front and honest about my dogs. So many owners like to sugarcoat such behavior and the end result is that often the vet or vet tech is on the receiving end of a bite (been there). I know your Scout isn't that bad, but I just wanted to give the perspective of an owner who has dogs that otherwise are very trustworthy but whom can react badly when at the vet's. I'd much rather have a note on my dog's charts then not and know that I might be responsible for someone in the vet's office being hurt. It doesn't make me feel like less good of an owner--it just means I'm taking responsibility for my animals' behavior in situations where I can't be there to control it myself. Also, I think border collies are amazingly easy to train, BUT as a trainer you have to be careful not to bore them with too much repetition or to overface them simply because they are smart. Puppies are babies mentally and they all go through stages when you start to wonder what the he** went wrong. But those stages do pass and life gets better. I agree with whoever said that it would be helpful if your vet's staff would work with you now to help overcome some of her fearful behaviors in the vet's office. For a start I would make an appointment just to go visit--go into the exam room, get up on the table, and let nothing but good things happen. Even if you have to pay an office visit to do so, it would be well worth the money for Scout to learn that the vet's can be a source of GOOD THINGs too. P.S. Love the name Scout. My Lark's mother is named Scout after the Harper Lee character as well. I would have liked to continue that theme, but none of the other characters in the book seemed to fit, and I like bird names, but couldn't make mockingbird work, so chose Lark instead (which was appropriate, since I took her on something of a lark). Anyway, good luck with little Scout. Persist and you will be rewarded with a wonderful friend. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
painted_ponies Posted April 4, 2007 Report Share Posted April 4, 2007 Mary, Skittles is adorable! Thanks for the pic. Faith adopts that exact same tail-in-the-air-hackles-raised posture sometimes. Do you really think he's part cattle dog? I've been asked that about Faith - it sure would explain some of the hard-headedness (no offense to cattle dog people). Would you believe Faith and Skittles's former shelter has three more BC in now, after we just got six out of there over Christmas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scout's Mom Posted April 4, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 4, 2007 Well, I'm back from getting Scout spayed. Everyone loved her, but agreed that she was pretty wild. The other news is that she has a Dermodex mange spot over her eye. She'd been losing fur there for a few days and I had them check it out. Dang! It's going to be fun giving her medicine! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WoobiesMom Posted April 5, 2007 Report Share Posted April 5, 2007 I don't have very much to offer but I hope it helps to know you're not alone. I'm a new mom to a 6 mo. old mix and we call the evenings his "wolf time" when he goes bonkers. He was very very mouthy and would bite down quite hard. The whole "turn your back and don't play" approach didn't work as I'm sure he would draw blood from our calves if ignored. I've found that pushing down on his tongue whenever his teeth touch me has helped him to be more careful about biting me (he still chews on my daughter who won't stop letting him!) and then I encourage and praise him to lick with the whole "Kisses... kisses... kisses...." thing. As for his crazy wild time which is for about an hour after the sun goes down, I now make a point of just wearing him out with lots of fetch (which he loves) and then when he's burned off some steam, we "work" which he also loves, which is our word for clicker training. It usually works to distract and occupy him long enough for the crazy time to pass. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anda Posted April 5, 2007 Report Share Posted April 5, 2007 Wow, lil' Skittles is turning into a young adolescent! I can see a glimpse of Mr. Grown-up Skittles in that patrolling shot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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