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Im lazy so Im just pasting what I put on the yahoo groups.

 

My dog refuses to eat raw. So I thought I'd feed her the only thing she'll eat raw. She had 3 beef back ribs last night. She got all the meat off and I took them from her when she quit chewing on them. Im trying to get her to eat chicken and she wont, so Im holding out til she eats. A few minutes ago (28ish hours after the ribs) she vomited a small amount of vomit. In it were 2 bone pieces, and hair. The bone pieces were not big, but looked like imagine a 1 inch square of bone and cut it in half. It looked like 2 triangles of bone, about that size together.

 

Previously we had fed her once a day and she'd vomit, the vet said to feed her twice a day to stop it. So we have been. Till yesterday. She didnt eat breakfast, and she ate the beef ribs about 6pm last night. Today I offered her chicken for breakfast and she refused, tonight same thing and she refused. What did I do wrong? What can I do to help her?

 

Just FYI the only other time I fed her beef back ribs she also vomited a small amount of bone. Is it just that she doesnt digest the bones right yet? Im sure they arent big enough to cause a blockage...I just need to know what to do and what I've done wrong.

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Today I offered her chicken for breakfast and she refused, tonight same thing and she refused. What did I do wrong? What can I do to help her?

 

Just FYI the only other time I fed her beef back ribs she also vomited a small amount of bone. Is it just that she doesnt digest the bones right yet? Im sure they arent big enough to cause a blockage...I just need to know what to do and what I've done wrong.

 

You did nothing wrong except maybe feed difficult bones to a newbie dog. At their best, beef bones are difficult for most dogs to digest. A dog that is just beginning is not generally up to the challenge of dense bones. Don't feed beef bones until Riven has had some on the job training. The vomited bone bits are what's left after Riven's digestive system has done all it can do--what can't go out one way will come out the other; both exit strategies are more healthy than stagnant irritants.

 

If Riven refuses to eat chicken, I mean, after you've given her the choice of chicken or zip and she opts for zip, try a different meat. I forget--have you tried pork? Try pork. Doesn't have to have a bone in it for now; for now just concern yourself with meat acceptance.

Chris O

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Ok, I havent tried anything but chicken. I will have hubby pick up some pork tonight if I can. Thanks so much for answering me.

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OH my gosh!!!! I just went in to give my cat a quarter of a game hen and Riven came in. I gave it to the cat and he licked it and I praised and praised him (jealousy works wonders with Riven). Riven came over and I gave her a quarter and she's eating it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :rolleyes: :D :D Im so happy wooohooo.. she's actually eating it.

 

ETA: She just ate half a game hen!!!!! HALF!!!!! AND a chicken foot!! Im sorry Im just really excited. She has never eatten raw chicken. I watched her the whole time and she chews and chews and chews. That is great.

 

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The vomited bone bits are what's left after Riven's digestive system has done all it can do--what can't go out one way will come out the other; both exit strategies are more healthy than stagnant irritants.

 

Pancreatitis, on the other hand, can be life-threatening.

 

Not to be a wet blanket, here, but my holistic vet (who feeds her own dogs raw diets) isn't wild about the "whole prey" approach, and she has seen some "whole prey" dogs that she believes were unhealthy as a result of the diet. She says that not all dogs (particulary senior dogs) can adapt easily to a raw diet, and, to be honest, not all dogs thrive on them.

 

Ahhh, but what does she know :rolleyes:

 

There have been lots of threads on raw diets --- here's one from November:

http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=5228

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If you find that she still vomits on the quarters, I would reduce bone consumption for now and add it back in more slowly - maybe give a boneless thigh piece with a chicken neck or two, or a boneless thigh and leave the bone in the leg part.

 

I don't know if you have access to turkey necks, but when I started feeding raw with Speedy, I used turkey necks to introduce him to bone. I cut one in half and gave him a half a day for a couple of days. From there we moved up to chicken backs and then to quarters.

 

I don't feed the whole prey model, so he gets a boneless meal every morning and then he gets his bones (usually turkey or chicken necks, or half a chicken back, or something like that). It works out well for him.

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Donna, I hope Riven adjusts to the new raw diet without any more problems. However, I mentioned it on the other RAW post, my dog CANNOT have any raw meat or bones, although he LOVES it, but the next day he has horrible diarhia and vomitting.. (just happened few days ago, after I gave him some beef soup bones which he worked on for a good hour or couple of hours)...

 

I hope Riven has more of an iron stomach, but as someone said, RAW is not suited for 100% of dogs....

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Ok, I havent tried anything but chicken. I will have hubby pick up some pork tonight if I can. Thanks so much for answering me.

 

 

 

Hi! I noticed you mentioned giving your dog pork? I don't know if there is a difference in raw and cooked pork, but my Vet has told me repeatedly to not give our dogs pork (said it dosnt digest properly and it was to rich) we had 2 dogs get Pancreatitis (did I spell that right? haha!) from eating pork. I sure hope nothing happens to yours by eating it. I got nervous when I saw that and just wanted to share with you what happened to our critters with pork. I hope it's different with raw though. Anyway, just wanted to let you know my experience. Your dog is so cute, i'd hate if they got sick.

But remember, I am a newbie to the raw thing! So, hopefully I don't know what im talking about ! haha! :rolleyes:

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You did nothing wrong except maybe feed difficult bones to a newbie dog. At their best, beef bones are difficult for most dogs to digest. A dog that is just beginning is not generally up to the challenge of dense bones. Don't feed beef bones until Riven has had some on the job training. The vomited bone bits are what's left after Riven's digestive system has done all it can do--what can't go out one way will come out the other; both exit strategies are more healthy than stagnant irritants.

 

If Riven refuses to eat chicken, I mean, after you've given her the choice of chicken or zip and she opts for zip, try a different meat. I forget--have you tried pork? Try pork. Doesn't have to have a bone in it for now; for now just concern yourself with meat acceptance.

Chris O

 

Good ideas - In my experience, it might be a good idea to give Riven a digestive enzyme capsule with her food for a while - Her stomach's pH is set up to digest kibble right now - and it may take a while for it to adjust to meat and bones. For some dogs it happens almost overnight, for some it takes longer. I find that some dogs switching to raw have a harder time than others. And yes, I do think there may be a "detox period" of vomiting and loose stools, which IMO may be related to the stomach pH and ability to digest a new type of food more than actual "toxicity" of the old food. Imagine going from a diet of Total Cereal 3 times a day to Steak and Chicken. How would your digestive system handle that?

Laurie

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Pork necks have been a staple in my dogs' diets for a long time.

 

Anda, I am in NO WAY contradicting your experiences with Ouzo, and I completely understand and obviously respect AK Dog Doc's professional opinion and experience. I'm also honestly not trying to get you to switch or otherwise influence anyone's decision on what to feed their dogs :D

 

However, I just want to discuss my experience. Before I made the switch to raw, my dogs would get diarrhea whenever I decided to "treat" them with raw beef or even marrow bones. I also thought we couldn't do raw, that my dogs just couldn't handle it. But when I decided to give raw feeding a serious try, I began by feeding them chicken only for a couple of weeks, then week by week introducing other kinds of meat (lamb, pork, turkey, elk, tripe, before finally trying organ meats in tiny amounts). To my surprise, they did fine and didn't really experience any of the diarrhea they'd had previously. The difference was that they were able to build up their internal bacterial flora gradually so that they could handle digestion of the richness of beef and the variety of different meats. So, just handing my kibble-fed dogs some rich beef was too much for their unacclimated digestive systems to handle, but now they can pretty much eat anything without any problems. Well, actually I still don't feed them beef too often--I just don't have a high-quality, low-cost source and they have lots of variety in their diets without it.

 

And Donna I'm glad to hear Riven's eating--maybe she just didn't realize before that raw poultry is food :rolleyes:

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Laurae, what you describe makes perfect sense, and in a way, that is what I was trying to get at, by gradualy introducing him to diferent meats, hoping that in time, his body would adjust and be able to handle it. In light of our recent adventures with Ouzo's digestive system, I think it is safer for him if I just throw in the towel and stop experimenting on him :D Although I am 100% certain he would prefer to eat meat/bones rather than those disgusting kibbles (in his opinion :D ).

 

Funny, the enormous quanities of napkins/newspaper/etc he manages to steal and ingest don't have the slightest ill effect on him or his output :rolleyes:

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Why don't you slow down a bit? Start with her old food with some steamed vegetables added. Then have a second small meal a day of lean raw meat, no bones, with the vegetables. Increase the rawness of the pureed vegetables slowly too. Let her stomach get adjusted to that before you throw the big bones her direction. Then when you are ready to feed bones make it simple ones like chicken backs or lamb ribs.

 

Pork should be hard frozen for 30 days before feeding, I know of several dogs now who have gotton trichonosis from fresh grocery store pork. It is *very* hard to treat, and a public health hazard that has to be reported to the county. The store has to put up signs warning people to cook carefully too. You will be very unpopular with your suppliers if you cause this :rolleyes:

 

Starving her to "force" her to eat, then giving her bony foods on an empty stomach is a recipe for a blockage or perforation. She isn't starving herself out of temper or pickiness, she either doesn't recognize this with food *or* she inately knows that product will make her sick.

 

Slow down. Raw can be a good diet for most dogs, but there is no need to force it down her throat <pun intended>

 

We feed 20+ raw, have since 1998. I've switched or supervised the switch of over 100 dogs now and only 1 did not convert because of the diet. Several owners however, found it too much work. To each their own.

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Lenajo, are you located in the States? I'm curious, because I know several raw feeders in different places throughout the country and was under the impression that trichinosis is no longer an issue here.

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Hey hun, I'm no expert on the matter but I know Bailey was ill for a few days after we switched him to raw (that started about 24hrs after his first meal), his stomach settled down after 2 days or so. It was just the switch that caused a bit of an upset. I think he did really well, I'd have been ill a lot more than he was if I started eating raw meat :rolleyes:

 

Glad she ate the game hen, it should get easier from here if she's now figured out its food!!!!! Congrats!

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She puked a tiny bit of bile this morning, but she's acting ok. So I'm gonna try to give her the other half of the game hen tonight and see how it goes..

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Lenajo, are you located in the States? I'm curious, because I know several raw feeders in different places throughout the country and was under the impression that trichinosis is no longer an issue here.

 

Not only am I in the States, but the last Trich. incident I referred to was in Florida. The product that was contaminated was raw ground pork from a supermarket chain.

 

It's not prevalent, but why take the risk? Freeze your pork first. I would recommend the same with beef (24 hours at least, to kill any Neospora Caninum. Especially if you are feeding puppies) and venison (30 days).

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That's really interesting--not to mention scary! I always do freeze all my meats (actually everything always comes to me frozen hard), but I hadn't heard of any trich cases in the recent past.

 

You can never be too careful! :rolleyes:

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Just an update on Riven...She's eaten half a raw game hen and a chicken foot 2 nights in a row now with no trouble. Tonight Im gonna give her a split chicken breast (bone in) and hubby said he'll buy some steak I can give her as well. I need to buy a scale too. lol :rolleyes:

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