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Hello ,

I have a wonderful border collie and would like to switch back to a raw diet . As a puppy I fed her a prepackaged raw diet from mountain dog food company . She did very well on it but because at the time I was traveling with her quite a bit I switched to a holistic kibble as it was just easier that way . I have tried a few different kibbles (Innova , GO! Natural and First Mate ) and I had my issues with each . Overall she just seemed so much healthier on raw , shiny soft coat , freash breath , clean pearly white teeth and bright clear eyes . I would really like to switch back to raw but this time I would like to make my own . I would like to have more control of whats in my dogs food and know exactly what she's eating . I have done lots of research but would love to hear from some people who make their own dog food . Where do you buy your meat ? What vegetables do you use ? What supplements do you add ? Any tips or advice would be greatly appriecated . Thank you in advance .

 

So far I was thinking of feeding a 75% meat to 25% fru/veggi ratio . I am planning on using Chicken or Turkey/Bone in , Beef Heart , Green Tripe , Kale , Carrots , Pea's , Squash , Apple and Blueberries . I'll also be adding Kelp , vitamins , brewers yeast , apple cider vinagar , flax and fish oil's . How does that sound so far ? I'll be putting all the vegetables through a juicer .

 

For anyone living in British Columbia , have you ever used Surrey Meat Packer Ltd ? If so how were they ?

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For anyone living in British Columbia , have you ever used Surrey Meat Packer Ltd ? If so how were they ?

 

Surrey Meat Packer's food is, to put it bluntly, shit. I wouldn't feed it. The guy salts the meat and every time I ever used it, I found bits of plastic and other debris in it. I'd avoid it. They have good deals on recreational bones, but their whole chicken bits are overpriced. They are a good source of turkey necks though.

 

Mountain Dog is not, in my opinion, that much better. They pretty much only offer chicken, have been out of tripe for a YEAR and everything else they sell has veggies and fruits pre mixed in. I don't feed veggies or fruits, unless something is going off in the fridge. I don't think it's necessary, and if I do feed it I want to be able to control which ones go into it. MD is not one of the better quality raw food manufacturers out there, IMO.

 

I feed Fresh Start for my ground - none of it comes with veggies and they have excellent variety packs so you can offer a bunch of different things. It probably costs me about $80.00 a month to feed 4 dogs the ground from Fresh Start. The whole meats (chicken, pork etc) I buy from different places. The cat eats Red Dog, Blue Kat food because they have small sizes of things he really likes - rabbit, venison, bison. This year I am looking into buying bulk rabbits from a guy in the Okanagan, and splitting a lamb with a friend.

 

The only 'supplements' I add are Vitamin E and Salmon Oil. I feed dairy pretty well daily (cottage cheese or yogurt) and offer blackstrap molasses or eggs on various other days. I try to avoid any kind of grains at all.

 

I'd really avoid Surrey Meat Packers if you can. The few cents / dollars you'll save doesn't mitigate the poor quality.

 

RDM

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I also don't feed any veggies, except for the occasional unsalted, canned green beans to help give my older dog a feeling of fullness. He's not as trim as he used to be. I do give a vitamin supplement (as per my vet's suggestion), salmon oil daily, glucosomine for the older dog, and a dolop of yogurt. My puppy was having trouble with vomiting up his meal, but the yogurt has totally eliminated that. They also get canned makerel in water about once a week. I can't offord to buy fish fillets from the store, otherwise I'd feed that instead. Most of their meat is either chicken, pork, or beef. Those are the ones most offordable around here, with beef being the most expensive. We buy it in bulk at Sam's Club, but you probably don't have that where you are. I also give organs - chicken or beef liver, green tripe, sweetbreads, kidney (though my older dog won't touch the kidney!), and stomach. Beef hearts are also good to use for meat-only meals and it's relatively inexpensive. I'd love to feed more meat varieties, but so far haven't found any offordable alternatives to the three I mentioned above. Good luck! :rolleyes:

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YUCK !!! Thanks , I'll avoid using them . I won't be using MD either , I was introduced to it by the rescue I was fostering for and my fosters did so well on it I put my little monster on it too . Thank you for the info .

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YUCK !!! Thanks , I'll avoid using them . I won't be using MD either , I was introduced to it by the rescue I was fostering for and my fosters did so well on it I put my little monster on it too . Thank you for the info .

 

One of the complaints about Mountain Dog is that their food is very fatty. I don't know that I ever noticed this myself though. I just didn't care for their limited variety. And the other thing about Surrey Meats is that if you thaw a chunk of it, you get a half bowl of blood or more. You're paying for that. So I'd look at other options.

 

RDM

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Great that you're thinking of switching back to raw - your youngster will love you for it! But you can save money on all the supplements, with perhaps the exception of the fish oil, and no need to go overboard on the veg either.

 

Have a look at Tom Lonsdale's site Raw Meaty Bones - www.rawmeatybones.com - his 2005 book 'Work Wonders' can be downloaded free of charge in PDF format and is interesting reading.

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Okay , so I shouldn't feed veggie's or at least daily ? The whole raw thing is a little overwhelming and a little scary but I know it is totally worth it . I am planning on using a variety of meats like chicken , turkey , lamb , beef , bison , elk , mouse , emu , ostrich , salmon , herring and rabbit all available locally . Can anyone give me an examples of what they feed ? Maybe a weekly menu or something ? Sorry for all the questions , I am just so afraid of doing anything wrong .

 

I've read several books and websites but it's always nice to hear from other owners .

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The raw diet Im following is called "Prey Model Diet" basically there are no veggies, no supplements. It is only raw meat and bones. Im feeding my dog AND cat that food. Pre packaged raw IMO isnt worth it. If you're gonna spend the money on it you can buy a ton more at the grocery store.

 

The reason I picked this particular diet out of my research is because it really makes the best sense to me. Genetically dogs are closest to the grey wolf. The studies have shown grey wolves do not eat the contents of the stomachs of their prey... i.e. veggies, grass ect. Dogs cant digest vegetables (from what Ive researched), and the only way to get them to digest is to cook them. They cant cook veggies in the wild, why would I want to give them veggies now?

 

Here is a link to the diet I follow. :rolleyes: http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html There is a phone number and email if there are further questions that Im unable to answer. ANd considering I just started it, Im sure there will be lol.

 

Good luck!

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THANK YOU, donna...You're basically recapping what I was just about to say...and you're just beginining raw! Can you send Laurena the info I sent you? It'll save me a bit of time, so I don't have to completely redo it.

 

 

I have some great pics, once lazy dad uploads 'em off his camera and onto his computy.

 

To correct donna on one point- Wolves and other carnies (except Cats, they don't eat the stomach at all) DO eat SOME stomach content. They try to push and spit out the majority. The unavoidable left overs is what is being consumed. Because of this, I feed green tripe on a monthly basis. It's basically stomach thats not cleaned and bleached.

 

Here are some fabulous links:

 

www.rawlearning.com

Note: Some people say raw learning's author Jane Anderson is a prey model raw extremist, but I disagree. The people who say this, IMO, are misinformed about the whole concept of raw diet. I use her website like a bible. If I ever have a question, I turn here or to raw fed dogs.

 

www.rawdogranch.com

www.rawfed.com/myths

www.rawfeddogs.net

 

 

Don't start off with a large variety of meats. They upset a kibble dogs fragile digestive system. They're only use to one kind of food, and it's not fair to their body to start throwing foreign crap like emu, pork, beef, bison and rabbit at them, when they've only been on kibble or chicken. It will get to the point after about 2 years (depending on stomach sensitivty) you can throw things in that the dog has never eaten before and expect the dog not to puke it up or have extreme cannon butt.

 

When feeding things like liver, heart (not so much, this was the first thing my raw fed BC had), or kidneys, always start off with a piece the size of a quarter. Organs are very rich and cause upset stomachs, unlike muscle meat or raw meaty bones. Heart is technically a muscle meat, but I still say it's an organ. When you start off with a quarter sized piece, you can keep working up till you can feed a whole beef liver with out diarhea.

 

DETOX: TRUE!!! OR IS IT????!!!!

 

Never listen to people saying your dog gets vomiting or loose stools because of "detoxification". It's a myth, point and blank. They say it happens when you switch from crappy food to fantabulitstic (word of the day) food...but what about when you switch from say...raw to ol' roy? The dog will get the runs and puke a bit, would you say that's detox?! I think Not!

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The link I put on was to Jane Anderson as well! lol -

 

I disagree still on the wolf thing, here is something I just read.

 

Wild Grey Wolves (Canis lupis) are genetically identical to dogs (Canis lupis familiaris). Given decent habitat and prey availability, grey wolves will only choose to eat large animals, such as moose, deer, bison, elk.. you get the point. If the big prey is not available, they will hunt smaller prey, and if no prey is available they can temporarily live on some plant matter.They don't eat the contents of the stomach and do not have the ability to process vegetable matter. That is why those who are proponets of dogs being fed veggies say that you have to "process" it for them,they cant "process" it themselves. Although in the end it doesnt matter if they do or dont eat stomach contents really...

 

I will forward the list to her, or him I guess lol.

 

ETA: I did send the list, and I re-read your post Haleigh. I guess you said it was unavoidable left overs, and I cant disagree with that... so color me stupid for the moment lol :D I read somewhere that tripe is natures dental floss lol :rolleyes:

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Thanks for all the info , you guys have been a huge help . It seems prey model diet is the best way to go , it makes the most sense really . I now see there is no need for fruits and vegetables and supplements . I'll start her off on chicken till her body gets use to digesting raw meat before I start offering a variety of meats . I'll talk to the butcher just down the road and see what he can get for me , otherwise I'll use Fresh Start .

 

Hopefully I haven't come across like a complete idoit . I'm just a paranoid doggy mom terrified of screwing up . I am still a little intimidated by it all but am really excited to get started . I've been given a lot of mixed information in the past which left me confused and afraid . You guys have really sent me off in the right direction and I can't thank you enough . Those links were a huge help , thank you .

 

Thankfully my pets have a huge freezer devoted to them . It's only a quarter full of mice , rats and rabbits for my reptiles . So there should be plenty of room for Heidi's food .

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Most of this has been gone over and you've got some great information to work with, so I'll keep this as really and truly short as I can.

 

If you want to feed veggies and fruit, add them to a meal after you've decided what the menu is. Veggies and fruit do not have to use up valuable space...they can be plopped literally on top of the essential food, and in quantities far less than 25% of the diet. How about 2%? Much more realistic. Veggies and fruit are great as treats though, and as long as you remember that treats are special, you can use veggies and fruit freely.

 

Squash is generally regarded as a dietary aid if one is so inclined, not a rotation veggie. I prefer to regulate my dogs' stools with more or less bone and more or less meat or organs, but some people think squash does the trick faster and with less effort. Too much squash may constipate OR loosen up a dog, so please rethink including it in the menu. Better to feed it to yourself.

 

Brewer's yeast should definitely be reconsidered. There's no nutritional need for it. Spend your money on high quality human grade meats and organs and you will not have to worry about compiling a laundry list of supplements. The same goes for ACV and flaxseed oil. Your dog has digestive juices that out strip ACV's benefits. Let your dog do what it can do, naturally. Flaxseed oil is a very inefficient source of Omega 3 fatty acids. What it has is a precursor to it--alpha linolenic acid--that must be converted to linolenic acid before the dog can use it. Only about a third of the ALA actually benefits the dog. Stick to animal-based EFAs. The salmon oil (or fish body oil, but not cod liver oil) will do fine and be more effective.

 

Vitamins come in the foods you feed. You do not have to add more. Adding C and E comfort some people, I don't think either is necessary but neither is especially intrusive if used appropriately.

 

Instead of looking for sources of premixed, premade meat-based products, you should consider grocery stores, supermarkets, meat wholesalers, Asian markets. You can almost certainly buy human grade food for less money, with less hassle and with fewer compromising "ingredients."

Chris O

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Chris O... are you part of the yahoo groups on raw feeding? I believe you answered a question to me today regarding my friends moms diabetic dog. :rolleyes:... the siggy is David and Donna Martinez.

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Chris O... are you part of the yahoo groups on raw feeding? I believe you answered a question to me today regarding my friends moms diabetic dog. :rolleyes:... the siggy is David and Donna Martinez.

 

 

Yep, that would be me.

Chris O

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Chris O... are you part of the yahoo groups on raw feeding?

 

I was wondering the same thing. Glad to see you here!

 

Have we seen a pictiure of your dog(s) yet (or lately)? Besides the actual useful information that can be gleaned from this board, its next best function is as a nexus of excellent BC photos :rolleyes:

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Brewer's yeast should definitely be reconsidered. There's no nutritional need for it. Spend your money on high quality human grade meats and organs and you will not have to worry about compiling a laundry list of supplements. The same goes for ACV and flaxseed oil. Your dog has digestive juices that out strip ACV's benefits. Let your dog do what it can do, naturally. Flaxseed oil is a very inefficient source of Omega 3 fatty acids. What it has is a precursor to it--alpha linolenic acid--that must be converted to linolenic acid before the dog can use it. Only about a third of the ALA actually benefits the dog. Stick to animal-based EFAs. The salmon oil (or fish body oil, but not cod liver oil) will do fine and be more effective.

 

I never feed any supplements except fish oil, and NEVER would feed brewers yeast. I agree 100% with this statement. I've read somewhere brewer's yeast causes bloat. I need to find the link. Also, believe it of not, garlic (which people feed high amounts of) are just as toxic as onions. they have the same components and cause the same illnesses.

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Thanks ,

I'll be doing a prey model diet , no vegetables , no additional supplements other than fish oil . Starting off with chicken , then I'll start adding more variety ( lamb , beef , turkey , salmon etc ...) . I don't want to unset her tummy , even though I already know she has a iron stomach . I don't have any intention on using any premade products . I talked to the butcher just down the road and made a order for a bunch of stuff , he can get pretty much anything I need . Thanks for all the help .

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I, too, have been considering going raw. How much do you guys feed your BC's? And a stupid question, where do you get fish oil? The links that have been added have been very helpful.

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You can find fish oil in the human suppliments/vitamines isles - all pharmacies have it. I would suspect a pet store would have some fish oil in quanitities corresponding to dogs....

 

Unfortunatly I cannot do the RAW diet with my dog, since he gets SERIOUS runs for days at a time when I give him beef or pork bones with meat. Or simply uncooked meat ... To the point it can last up to 4-5 days following such treats... plus the occasional vomiting....The only bones he's stomach is ok with are cooked lamb bones/ribs. Foolish me, I keep trying to see if gets better as he matures, and no, it doesn't... :D I should just stop experimenting with my poor pup :rolleyes:

 

Edited to add: All these adverse reactions are in addition to his severe reaction to any chicken products, cooked or uncooked, including dry dog food containing chicken! Lovely... And he ADORES chicken!

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I was wondering the same thing. Glad to see you here!

 

Have we seen a pictiure of your dog(s) yet (or lately)? Besides the actual useful information that can be gleaned from this board, its next best function is as a nexus of excellent BC photos :rolleyes:

 

Thanks. No picture because I haven't figured out how to post them. And I can't seem to take a decent photo of her. Grim, very grim. However! If you go to

 

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n168/RD...a/HeadStudy.jpg

 

and look at Roseanne's girl, you'll see almost exactly what Tess looks like. Same, same, same.

Chris O

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I never feed any supplements except fish oil, and NEVER would feed brewers yeast. I agree 100% with this statement. I've read somewhere brewer's yeast causes bloat. I need to find the link. Also, believe it of not, garlic (which people feed high amounts of) are just as toxic as onions. they have the same components and cause the same illnesses.

 

Garlic is considered fine in moderation. For a medium size dog, a small clove every other day is not invasive. There's little reason to feed onion; garlic may help with fleas. However, there are other non-traditional ways to deal with fleas, so if you're not comfortable feeding garlic, you certainly don't have to.

Chris O

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I, too, have been considering going raw. How much do you guys feed your BC's? And a stupid question, where do you get fish oil? The links that have been added have been very helpful.

 

There are two basic ways to decide how much to feed. Usually they sort of blend together after a while. The first is to feed some percentage of ideal adult body weight--2%, 3%, 4% even 5% if your bc is "on" 24/7. So a 40lb adult might get 13oz a day (at 2%), or 19oz a day (at 3%), or perhaps 25oz (at 4%).

 

My 6mo pup weighs about 25lb; I am feeding her about a pound of food a day which according to the formula would be adequate for a 50lb adult. I doubt she'll even get to 40lb but she's burning through that amount of food right now so I dare not reduce it, at least yet. When she slows down (yeah right), she may get less food.

 

The other way is to simply start with some amount and then adjust up or down as your dog's appearance, behavior, energy level, etc. warrant it. This is hard for lots of people who are accustomed to feeding per a chart, but for the dog it makes more sense--if you need more food you eat more food, if you don't, you don't.

 

I think it's easiest to start with a percentage of adult weight, then adjust up and down based on the dog itself. Best of both worlds, IMO.

 

I get my fish oil good old Walmart. Truly though, it's everywhere.

Chris O

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A) Domestic dogs are NOT genetically identical to wolves. If they were, they'd look and act like wolves. If you don't believe this, try adopting a wild wolf puppy, rearing it like a BC, and then putting it on sheep to see if it will do as a BC does. The wolf, even if reared like a dog (and good luck THERE, BTW), will do what it's genetically designed to do, and HUNT THEM. Not herd them. A BC will do otherwise. Saying wolves are genetically identical to BCs is like saying pugs are gentically identical to whippets. Where do you think the different traits come from? It isn't pixie dust. It's GENETICS. If Pugs and whippets were genetically identical they would look alike, act alike, perform alike. They don't - because of genetic differences.

 

I have a hard time believing that anyone on these boards - where the issue of AKC vs ABCA GENETICS leading to markedly different results in behavior, performance, and appearance, even within the same breed, is so frequently discussed - would not recognize that wolves and BCs are NOT genetically identical. Gentically SIMILAR, perhaps, but that does NOT mean "same". We (human beings) share about 95% of our DNA in common with chimpanzees. We are not chimpanzees, and they are not us, despite a great degree of genetic similarity. Even that 5% can lead to some remarkable differences. Even within the human species there are genetic differences (what we used to refer to as different "races" of human beings) that can result in markedly different nutritional needs between varying groups, different levels and kinds of disease resistance, different food sensitivities, different abilities to digest and metabolize varying types of foods. Etcetera. Just to be clear: different human "races" would be analagous to different breeds of domestic dogs. This is not the same as dogs being genetcially identical to wolves, or chimps being genetically identical to gorillas (or people).

 

GAH. Selective breeding - such as produces domestic strains of anything that once existed in a "wild" state, such as produces different breeds of dogs, such as produces variations WITHIN a breed of dogs in terms of looks, performance, temperament, drive, appearance, coat type, etc etc etc - is about concentrating different genes to give you whatever traits you're selecting for. Logic. Please. I'm begging you.

::beats head against wall::

 

B ) Onions (and kale, BTW) DO cause Heinz body anemia. Garlic, not so much. Too much of anything - even oxygen - is a bad idea. Being judicious is a good idea. As with anything.

 

C) I'm not sure what population of wolves one is looking at when saying they don't eat the gut contents of their prey, but they certainly DO do so, at least up here (where wolves are a bit mre common than, say, in downtown Chicago or Attlanta or what have you.) When consuming small prey items like mice and parka squirrels (etc) they pretty much eat the whole thing, gut contents and all. They've also been observed to gnaw on grasses and eat blueberries, which are abundant up here (the remains of which items can be found in their feces). Moreover, the coyote - which is way more similar to the wolf than a domestic dog is, genetically speaking - is a gastronomic opportunist, and will eat anything from berries to yucca pods, including cactus fruits and pads and various roots.

 

D) Just as a BTW, you can distinguish a wolf's skull from a dog's by various dentition differences and ratios and shapes of cranial and dental structure. Wolves can produce enough bite strength to crack the femur bone of an adult moose. The average dog would break its teeth or dislocate its jaw if it tried something like that. You want to take this into consideration when feeding your dog, regardless of if you feed it raw or otherwise. (Believe me, I've seen - and extracted - many a fractured tooth from just such endeavors in domestic dogs. I've also had to relocate the jaw on two different cats who were trying to eat bird bones and luxated their TMJ.)

 

E) Just as a BTW, I've had a number of patients, fed raw, who have cyclical and nearly intractable diarrheas and other gut complaints (including salmonella and other delights of food poisoning) - until they are taken off of raw feeding. It is not a panacea. Some dogs do great on it and others do not.

 

I'm not trying to be a pain in the behind about this. In the main I try to stay out of the Great Diet Debates. For one thing, some people are EXTREMELY rabid about this, well beyond the point of reason, and will viciously attack anyone who uses kibble or any comercially prepared food. For another, I really don't have a problem with people feeding raw or home-cooked meals SO LONG AS their dog (or cat) does well on it, AND they are making sure the animal's nutritional needs are met by the diet. But sometimes I just can't sit on my hands any longer, and evidently this is one of those times. Cats are true carnivores. DOGS ARE NOT, and nor are they wolves. Anyone who has ever done an up-close-and-personal with a wolf - as I have, BTW - will know the difference.

 

As an FYI, in case anyone has a question about my credentials in this department, I not only hold a Doctorate in Veterinary Medicine, I ALSO hold a Master of Science - in Wildlife Biology.

 

Sigh. End of rant. :rolleyes:

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I have a hard time believing that anyone on these boards - where the issue of AKC vs ABCA GENETICS leading to markedly different results in behavior, performance, and appearance, even within the same breed, is so frequently discussed - would not recognize that wolves and BCs are NOT genetically identical. Gentically SIMILAR, perhaps, but that does NOT mean "same". We (human beings) share about 95% of our DNA in common with chimpanzees. We are not chimpanzees, and they are not us, despite a great degree of genetic similarity. Even that 5% can lead to some remarkable differences. Even within the human species there are genetic differences (what we used to refer to as different "races" of human beings) that can result in markedly different nutritional needs between varying groups, different levels and kinds of disease resistance, different food sensitivities, different abilities to digest and metabolize varying types of foods. Etcetera. Just to be clear: different human "races" would be analagous to different breeds of domestic dogs. This is not the same as dogs being genetcially identical to wolves, or chimps being genetically identical to gorillas (or people).

 

I don't want to get into a war. I've been reading some of the raw stuff out of curiousity--trying to find a good cost-effective way of feeding my pup something decent--and where it breaks down for me is the idea of the poor herder taking that much raw meat out of his family's diet to feed his dog. I know the dog was essential and would get good treatment, but still. I can more easily imagine the dog getting the bones after the family has cooked soup or stew on it, maybe being encouraged to catch rats and mice and such on its own, and probably being supplemented with porridges or potatoes or whatever else the family had. Does anyone know of any documentation of this or has this issue been discussed anywhere that I could refer to?

 

I am just trying to satisfy my own curiosity, not argue with anyone who is doing something that works for them and their dog.

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