Ear bracing... normal or no?

[cbm618]

I saw an ear bracing how-to on a breeder's website (I'm honestly slightly horrified... this is the first time I've ever seen anything like that). It looks like they velcro the puppies ears together so that they flop over in adulthood. Is this a normal/accepted practice!? Does it hurt the puppy in any way? Would a reputable breeder do this? Let me clarify that the breeder looked very good (she's a full time, professional dog trainer). Here's her website http://www.jandemellobordercollie.com/ I'm pretty darn picky about breeders and have very high standards and she definitely met them initially... but this kinda made me take a step back. Is a breeder doing ear bracing something to be worried about, or is it just one of those things were you shrug your shoulders and move on?

[Kyrasmom]

I'm not even visiting the site but the short answer is yes, it is something to be worried about as what the ears do have nothing to do with who the dog is or what he may become. I don't know that it's painful, it's got to be uncomfortable, and it just serves no purpose other than to please a humans aesthetic need. If a breeder is suggesting this be done, it sounds like the priorities are not in order.

 

JMO

Maria

[BayouBC]

While I wouldn't ever do anything to one of my puppies/dogs to affect their ear set, I'm of the "to each their own" opinion personally. While I don't think it's a common thing with working BC breeders, it's done A LOT with other breeds and probably a lot within conformation-bred BC's. If it's done correctly, it doesn't hurt the dog. It's just all about aesthetics. My parents' yorkies both had their ears "posted" as puppies so they'd stand up, but the breeder started that, not them.

 

That all said...the breeder you linked is questionable in my opinion. I don't have time tonight to go through their entire site (and I'm sure others will offer their thoughts too), but very big #1: they register the puppies AKC instead of ABCA. That pretty much means that they are NOT breeding for working ability. Even if the registery they were using didn't bring up that thought, it's all over their website. Breeding for "versatility".

 

You could do a lot worse, as this breeder does (or says they do) test hips and eyes on the parents and eyes on the pups. But...not a breeder I'd go to or recommend. Also...good jeebus...$1,500 for a puppy? Again, to each their own, but I doubt I could ever justify to myself that high of a price for a puppy.

[Catu]

I've seen it done on GSD puppies, in which ones there is a very common practice and if it is the same procedure, it doesn't hurt the dog in any way, just keep the ear straight with a sponge and tape in order to let the cartilage to get used to the position.

 

I have to add that their website is probably the ugliest page I've ever seen and I couldn't search for many long, as I couldn't stand the horrific music.

[SoloRiver]

I think your initial instincts are correct. If you're interested in Border Collies, then you have a certain set of priorities you're looking for in a dog that don't generally have anything to do with its earset. The fact that the breeder you reference is concerned enough about ears to recommend cosmetic procedures indicates that perhaps this breeder's priorities are different than what you might be looking for.

 

For what it's worth I would not personally buy a dog from this breeder. If I were you, I'd keep looking, for a number of reasons.

[Bordercentrics]

This is standard procedure for AKC pups who are destined for showing in conformation. It doesn't hurt the pup, but it IS all about appearance.

 

Kathy Robbins

[Lenajo]

In 99% of cases it doesn't do more that bother the pup a bit. Once in a while you can get infections from lack of circulation and an ear ends up amputated. Very rare!

 

However, in the overall ethics it is a dishonesty by the breeder. . Set the pups ears, then when that pups old enough to breed you have to set it's pup's ears, then it's pups, lather, rinse, repeat. It's common in many show breeds now because they are breeding dogs with "incorrect" (by their "standards") ears that the puppy buyers think *are* correct.

 

It's not the same level of dishonesty as things like the wrong stud...a number off on the OFA number...etc. But *is* dishonest, and dishonest for a cosmetic reason. I find that distasteful myself, and coupled with multiple litters, hugely inflated prices, and color breeding....downright gross.

 

Lenajo

[shanni and kingsley]

one of the JRT that my friend adopted had wires or some wirey thingy in the ears to it stand all perky and nice.

 

eeks..

 

she had it removed though.

 

so yeah.. i have heard of ear bracing.

[AK dog doc]

I've seen some fairly horrific ear irritations and skin infections from gluing sponge in/on the ears. Taking it off can be quite difficult (assuming you intend to do it without removing some of the skin.) Last one I saw was a Dobe pup (poor thing) that had the sponge glued on post-crop. It was quite a mess taking it off, and I promise you it DID hurt that puppy.... maybe not while it was put on, and maybe not even most of the time it was on, but the "coming off" part sucked.

 

There are a lot of different ways to tape ears; all cause some degree of irritation, though it may be relatively minor in many or even most cases. But in a breed where ear set and shape are irrelevant to health or performance, why do it? Why put the pup and yourself through it, and why risk injury or infection in the pup? IMO it would be strictly for looks in the breed ring, and I can't support that. Especially in BCs.

[Beth G]

This practice disgusts me as it only benefits some silly human whim and not the dog.

 

Besides all of us here, know here that there is no set standard for BC ear carriage. Just another @$$inine AKC rule to ruin yet another breed!!!

[borderlicious]

I figure as long as the ears work, they're fine. I see no reason why a reputable breeder would mess around with ears, it's pointless.

 

If you're interested in opinions, I wouldn't buy a dog from that breeder and I'd strongly suggest that you look elsewhere.

[haleigh]

I was actually considering from that breeder, until I found out about the ear bracing

[stockdogranch]

I would NEVER EVER buy a dog from this person, not necessarily because of the ear thing, although I find that to be absolutely RIDICULOUS (but have seen it done by some over the years). But what would stop me is that these dogs are not being bred for ANY WORKING ABILITY WHATSOEVER (this person is VERY big on obedience, for which a nice rescue would do perfectly (if you're into that gazing adoringly at the handler stuff)), and as far as I am concerned only the best of the best with superior working traits (yes, of course, do hips and eyes, too), and I'm talking USBCHA here as well as REAL ranch work, should even be under consideration to be bred.

 

This type of person is/are the ones who are filling the rescues with brainless so-called BCs. She breeds cute, flashy colors, too, which should be a big tip-off.

 

End of rant,

Anna

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I think this illustrates what we'd call "red flags" - since we don't have the standard, as a breed, of a set of "rules" that "club" breeders adhere to, we can really only point out what might start setting off some alarms when a first time Border Collie buyer is considering a particular breeder.

 

We could probably think of more. Here's what we've got so far:

 

Discussion of ear setting

Any emphasis on color.

Dual registration

Volume of puppies produced

 

What other red flags can you think of?

[MaggieDog]

I agree with much of what has been said, but I did want to point out one thing - she does have one pup running in Open in USBCHA (one out of how many, but still..). That said, I still would never buy a pup from someone w/ such emphasis on looks.

[KellieinTX]

From what I've seen on here, anything mentioning versatility?

[cbm618]

I don't live on a farm so I'm not going to be working the dog in that sense. All I'd really want is that classic border collie intelligence. Her dogs do seem versatile in that they can do anything you ask of them (which is how I would define a BC, along with their incredible brain power). I'm just wondering if anyone else has ever heard of her or know her by reputation or anyone else that has versatile BCs. I'm still not ok w/ ear bracing and am still researching breeders. Thank you for all of your replies and opinions. I'm actually surprised I got so many responses.

 

I know from having read previous posts that I might get some flak for not wanting to work my dogs, but oh well. We all love border collies for all of their incredible traits and abilities and I for one am head over heels in love with this breed and will never want another one.

[hoku's mum]

I don't think you'd ever get any flak for not working your dog, many of us don't work livestock. It's the breeding for anything other then working ability that is the problem. Good luck with your search, and I'll just put my two cents in for rescue pups, we got our best bc boy ever from the local pound, and he is just everything we ever wanted and much more! Smart, fast, sound, and just a sweet love.

[Eileen Stein]

If you're head over heels in love with this breed, I'd urge you to support the kind of breeder who made them what they are, and that's one who breeds knowledgeably and conscientiously for working (herding) ability. The border collie's versatility has always been a byproduct of breeding for working ability, not an end in itself. Breeders like this are coasting along on the "versatility" that breeding for livestock work has produced; they are not contributing anything to the breed themselves, and over time the products of their breeding will become more and more mediocre, and less and less like border collies. Also, the price is another red flag for me -- I don't know any breeders I consider good who charge anything like $1500 for a pup. Those who do hope you'll think the more it costs the better it is, and generally that's not true in border collies.

 

Consider rescue -- you can get great border collies there who will satisfy your every expectation -- but if you want to buy from a breeder, I'd keep looking.

[border_collie_crazy]

that right, getting a BC and not planning on working it on stock is NOT an issue, a majority of the board members do NOT have the oppurtunity to work their dogs on stock, thjis includes me as well lol. but if what you want is a BC that truly is a BC then you need a breeder that BREEDS for stockwork as that is what makes the BC so versitile. its the very traits that make the BC ther world premier sheepdog that make them so versitile. so called "versitilty breeders" are actually mostly only interested in either agility and flyball...or conformtaion and agility and obedince. focaseing in on these traits can actual decrease the versitilty because they are focasing on too many meaningless traits and not enugh or at all on the traits that actually make the breed so versitile.

[KellieinTX]

Thanks Shayna, that's exactly what I was trying to get across. Breeders breeding for the right things don't have to advertise "versatility."

 

Also the we breed for "brains and beauty" thing I keep reading on some of these sites. Honestly, looking at all the pictures in the siggies on this site, I have yet to see an ugly BC.

[cbm618]

You know, I think I get it now! I was reading posts going, "Why are they so against breeding for anything but work?" But I think I understand. The conformation thing I've always been against but things like agility and flyball, I never knew why there was opposition. But I do get it now: The source of all of their versatility which allows them to do everything is the herding and that shouldn't be changed. However, I do have another question: Don't you think that dogs that excel in agility and obedience add to the breed overall? Shouldn't any improvement in ability be welcome in a breed as useful as the border collie? (I know this has nothing to do w/ ear bracing anymore but I just can't help myself. I'm learning a lot. )

[Journey]

Her dogs do seem versatile in that they can do anything you ask of them (which is how I would define a BC, along with their incredible brain power). I'm just wondering if anyone else has ever heard of her or know her by reputation or anyone else that has versatile BCs.

 

Yes, I know her personally and have for many years. She is a good person, stands behind her dogs for all time. Yes, she has had a "couple" of dogs run in USBCHA sanctioned trials and one qualified for nationals 3 times I believe (out of how many I can't count that high tonight!). However, the asking price is out of line IMO, but others don't think so and keep going back. As far as ears go, to each their own but shoot how do you know what you really "would have had" if you tape them from the git go?? Not my cup of tea. As others have said, you can find a good "working bred" Border Collie, just keep looking they really are out there with the same health clearances and ablilties.

 

Karen

[Beth G]

Here is another yet another reason I'd shy away from this breeder.

 

And I qoute,

 

" 'Cachet and Scheme managed to have a rendezvous while I was busy packing up to move to WA!' "

 

See here: http://www.jandemellobordercollie.com/Cach...hemepuppies.htm

 

 

 

 

And this isn't the only unplanned breeding that happened!! There was at least one other that I saw listed on her puppy page. Sounds very irresponsible.

[stockdogranch]

Yes, and when you click on *Scheme* it says he has some kind of Registered on Merit whatever through his wonderful offspring. There are all kinds of champion this and that listed (agility, flyball, obedience), and ONLY one dog says that it is an "agility/herding 'star'." Clicking on that dog, it then tells you about all of its agility accomplishments. It then goes on to say that the owner has been "herding" for 5 years, and that this dog "excels" in herding, yet there is not even one *title* listed. Now, I'll be the first one to say that titles mean less then nothing for a working dog, but after 5 years this dog can't even do that??? I could get my ex's mother's yorkie around a started course and get a *title*,

Anna