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Everything posted by Ooky

  1. I get this too, the BCs are terrible pets line. I don't care anymore that they think I know nothing about my own dog breed or maybe even my own dog. And you know what, with at least a majority of dog owners I've ever known, they are RIGHT. A border collie or even my Odin would be a terrible pet. For THEM. So when I hear this type of stuff now I actually smile and agree. This always puts these types off, because here I am with my well trained, friendly, kid-safe border collie going "Yes, you're right, they make TERRIBLE pets. I don't reccommend them at all." And I give Odin a little pat. While more often than not their atrocious little dog barks and lunges and flops around at the end of the leash like an idiot trying to biet my dog or my toddler, or their goofy untrained lab takes off and can't be called back. It seems to shock them so much that usually I am then able to avoid any lectures about how I need to excercise him more and/or really shouldn't have him unless I live on a farm.
  2. I think the important thing I did with Odin at that age wasn't his trick training, exactly, it was building the foundations for a really solid bond and relationship. I think this can be done partially with training, he and I both really liked our short sessions each day when he was a small pup. My husband actually spent more time with him as a pup (he worked from home that summer) but Odin bonded with me first and foremost. Nowadays I am embarrassed to admit he kind of considers some of my husband's commands "optional" but will always listen to me. While later events did contribute to this, it started early and I think at least some of that had to do with me spending one-on-one time with him trying to teach him specific things, training and also having expectations as described by Mr. McCaig, although I definitely didn't know what I was doing in the expectations department very well. It's interesting the OP brings up toddlers. I've learned as a parent that it is hard to listen to other moms brag about what their kid can do, without recognizing bragging for what it is and to not make you feel like you should be "stepping it up" with your kid's "training". I've also learned that for the more unbelievable reports (my 2 year old can already add!), the parents are outright lying or else they are completely deluded (usually the second). I wonder if some of that happens when people get puppies who hang out with other dog sport people, who are always working on early training foundation exercises and commands with tiny pups it seems like, or hang out here on these forums and read brags people have about their super super smart 10-week old BC pup. I think my early training focus for my next pup, now that I've been around stockwork folks more, will be a more laid back and realistic attitude about what pups can and should be expected to do (less emphasis on how many tricks and words they learn, more emphasis on automatic mannerliness). But however I train another pup I hope I can do as well laying the foundations for that strong bond between us.
  3. ^^^Agree. Also, train a "go potty" command. And clean the old spots really really well. In fact I agree with pretty much all advice in this thread, such as to get a crate and crate train, and go back to square 1 with training as it's pretty clear he's not house trained at the moment. If he has a UT problem some of it may clear up with treatment but its possible he's gotten in the habit of going inside. Try not to get too frusterated with him he sounds like a nervous boy in general and if he gets freaked out about the whole thing it could make your training job a LOT harder.
  4. Odin has been doing fantastic for 2 years now on a base of Natural Balance L.I.D. which we alternate between buffalo, lamb, and venison varieties. And then he gets about 1/2 cup every night of food scraps from our dinner - he will eat any cooked meat, pasta, peas, cooked carrots, pan sauce, breads, and cheese of any kind. He does not eat fruit or most veggies. And then whatever snacks he gets off the floor, including spilled milk from sippy cups. It sounds horrible but his stomach and coat and teeth all look great, plus he's at the perfect weight.
  5. I bought one because Odin loves sticks, and is always bring them to people at work to throw which I HATE. So when I saw it at Petco I thought GREAT! and the obvious didn't even enter my mind. Got out of the car at work with it and some guys were out there wanting to throw sticks for Odin and I said, "you should use this, sticks are dangerous!" They could barely keep it together, at which point I realized what it looked like, so I laughed it off like I meant to embarrass THEM. Not sure if it worked... No one will take this toy outside with him at work, its too bad because it really is a nice design if your dog likes...sticks. Yeah.
  6. I have to admit I don't know... Because I am an extreme softy and gave up the second night. We still crate trained him, as he was never out of his crate when we were gone the first two years and he still eats all meals in his crate, and spends several hours a day crated in my office art work, but he has slept in our room, with no chewing mishaps, since night 3. He also was about 10 weeks when we got him and about 80% potty trained already, always was fine overnight, so this option worked for us.
  7. Yep!! As an added bonus they are willing to play with the garden hose for HOURS...
  8. Yes and I'm sure no one doubts your experience, but that's what Julie and Smalahundur are saying, is that all that is, is your experience and not scientific evidence. My experience with my dog is that while he very much enjoys raw, the more I give him, regardless of what type of meat or the quality, the worse his digestive issues become. I do still like to give him raw occassionally, both as a treat (he is not picky at all and he just LOVES it, like most other food) and as a good way to clean his teeth for a lazy owner like me. But pretty much every time I do it, I can expect some amount of intestinal distress from him. At first I thought it was just poultry, but now I don't even trust his go-to meats, lamb and beef, to not cause diarrhea or some combo of hard white bone-stool constipation followed by diarrhea. Obviously he is healthier if I can avoid this type of upset, no matter how nutritionally "healthy" raw is in an objective sense. I also agree with Julie that I find the whole "it's how wolves" eat justification to be unsupported and basically an argument grounded in a logical fallacy. Dogs are not wolves. They have been evolving independantly for 10,000 years or more. Before even Border Collies or proto-BCs or even proto-collies of any kind were developed, dogs have been hanging out with humans, eating our waste scraps either by stealing these or from us offering said scraps freely. So in my mind the best "ancestral" diet, if this is the logic you want to stand on, should be meal scraps, probably a mix of both cooked and uncooked, highly varied, and definitely with carbs and grains in there as that's what humans tend to eat. Here is an article I ran across about raw feeding looking at the actual arguments for it and the evidence or lack thereof, no special benefits have bene shown from it so far. To further drive home the point originally broight up by Julie: I have a toddler now, and between her meal leavings and stuff she drops, my dog enjoys about 1/2 a cup of meal scraps a day on top of his kibble. Some of these scraps I think are extremely healthy, some are not (cheerios etc.). I do try to keep him from getting stuff with onions in it, but even those slip by from time to time I'm sure. Rather than stressing this "junky" diet, I realized he is HELPING me by getting that stuff off the floor, and right now in my life as a working mom I am as glad to have that help as he is to give it, as long as his health and weight remains good, which both are actually GREAT. Although he gets a weird mix of stuff that is obviously all cooked for human consumption + a base of kibble, his health is actually tons better than when he was on a significant % of raw. Better coat, better digestive health and great stools which is saying something since we fought terrible daily diarrhea for over a year. Yet, another dog may have exactly the opposite results, and that's the important part - knowing your dog and his health problems, your budget for food, and your comfort level wrt what you want to feed.
  9. I feed Odin treats (ie no garauntee) during the day, and one meal at night. I don't like breakfast myself really so it doesn't seem that weird to me. He DOES like food and will absolutely eat at any time though.
  10. We love lamb burgers, usually mix with some beef though. Also meatballs, meatloaf, sausage and just last night we had meat and fig pie turnover things with half ground lamb. Aside from ground lamb we do thoroughly enjoy other cuts. And if what we get is a little stronger sometimes, first of all I do think that lambiness is an acquired taste that grows on you. I think Pam is absolutely right that most in the US reject lamb because the stronger taste freaks them out when they are so used to beef. So it is weird that they market older larger animals here. (But, and I HIGHLY recommend this, if you have strong lamb you can always just cook it in honey- not just a glaze but a Moroccan honey sauce. It's so good and almost the stronger the better to pair with the honey. Wow, ok now I'm really hungry ) I've spoken to fancy restaurant staff here in the bay area, for example at deodeka in Los Gatos you can always get mind-blowing lamb and the cuts are tiny and ALWAYS imported. They said American lamb just isn't the same as NZ. Local slow food places use CA lamb though. I see a big difference with the NZ lamb, either at a restaurant or store-bought -- in my experience it is more tender and mild. Less flavor (and less gamey taste) in the fat. Both are good IMO.
  11. Very sorry for your loss. He sounds like such a special little guy, I had a little ironwoman growing up and know how wonderful schnauzers can be. Hugs to you.
  12. Paula that was great! Thanks for posting. This one may require a specific audience but since I am that audience, this was a funnier commentary than any I've read since the Point-Counterpoint written by the humidifier and the dehumidifier.
  13. We did this for Odin as a part of his OCD treatment plan. I think we got a deal due to the $5000 surgery for OCD! Like Kristen I believe our initial investment was about $600, but there were other fees for the cryo bank etc. Our ortho pushed it pretty hard, mainly as an arthritis preventive which is a big issue with reconstructed OCD shoulders. I can't tell you whether it worked or not, but Odin's shoulder damage was so bad the vet could not to laproscopic surgery which was unusual and had to fully "butterfly" the joint. After he healed, I have never noticed a single issue with his shoulder/gait or anything. He is 4 now so it was 3.5 years ago. Howeve, we'd probably expect real arthritis issues to show up later in life, right? He has full range of motion and never any swelling or problems like that. So maybe it worked. OR maybe it did nothing and it was just a good heal from the surgery, who knows. We still have cells left over for an arthritis treatment down the line too, but we pay $150 or something per year to keep them. I was glad to have known I gave him the best chance *I* could given what my vet was telling me at the time. But if it were to come up again I'd figure out what the MOST recent research said today (we did this in 2008). It was a NASTY incision to harvest the cells from fat tissues in his lower stomach area and as far as I could tell that caused him more pain than the shoulder incisions. JM2C
  14. Simba, thanks for that. I love the righteous indignation, the squawking that civil rights are being trampled, the call for a revolution, and the direct and patriotic comparison to the US fight for independence. I'm imagining him imagining a peke rally thousands strong, breeders marching on the house of commons demanding their civil rights to breed animlas who can't walk or breathe. In fact I'm pretty sure that right is discussed in the Federalist papers somewhere....
  15. I had a similar issue with Odin, about 6 months bout as well. I think he had giardia but who knows since his fecals never tested positive for anything. But sometimes they aren't shedding the parasites when you test so... We did two rounds of panacur at the 7-day dosing, whoch would help during days 3-7 while he was on it, but then he'd just go back to being sick again. We switched his food to a limited ingredient thing (which it sounds like you already have) but with a NOVEL protein (venison/bison in our case). Finally, we did 10 days panacur and met AND probiotics all at once. He still gets probiotics. The food switch and the major treatment fixed everything finally and he's been fine ever since. I've kept him on the same food because I feel superstitious about it but actually I don't think he needs it. I have a toddler and therefore he most certainly does NOT have a limited ingredient OR grain free diet any more. Good luck and keep us posted. 6 months of soft serve stools ---> terrible diarrhea and everywhere in between was awful. My boy retained his energy too but his coat condition declined a lot, I could tell he was unhealthy.
  16. Well after reading this thread, I went over to the Pedigree Dogs exposed blog, and also clicked a link that took me to a more egeneral dog forum where this was being discussed. There are actually a lot of (or at least some vocal) really irate people who feel this vet check thing is the most obvious sort of TRAVESTY. And are saying it has ruined Crufts and no high-level dog show-ers (or whatever you call them) will go to that show again. Someone claimed to have an email from one of the AKC board members promising that AKC would NEVER do something as stupid and unneccesary as this. One of the specific complaints I saw was that above ALL else the judges' decisions should stand as sacred or else what the heck is the point of any of it (....hmmm, now that I think of it that is actually a great question ). So therefore these people would now ONLY support shows that had integrity and respect for the judging. Another one was that the vets were obviously lying and taking animals out for totally bogus reasons. Another reason given a lot of attention was that this was purely political (spat out as if that immediately means "evil") and that this was all thanks to animal rights activists. People who disagreed were basically compared to HSUS and PETA. I have found confo people to be pretty immune to cognitive dissonance. Hence when shown clear evidence that the dogs are unhealthy and suffering, and completely different than their functional historic forms, they are able to ignore that totally and even claim with a straight face to breed for health. Because they breed for "good structure" (somehow "good structure" = health same way it somehow = function, right?) and don't forget, they do health testing. So in their minds the dogs were basically proven super-healthy already, or else they could have NEVER got BOB. So, no vet should check them. It all makes perfect sense, really. What is your guys' problem?!?
  17. And again, just to be balanced, one gem of a comment illustrates the other side - what a given family sees as predjudice against their farm/working the dogs may in fact be sensible adoption rules against something else they do with their dogs (emphasis mine):
  18. I ran across the the following blog postand thought it was applicable to this discussion WRT working dogs. This was particularly interesting to me: I really have empathy for rescuers and some of the stories shared my RDM in this thread have me rolling my eyes back into my head about how totally stupid and clueless members the general public can be. But this seems just crazy to me! How could a dedicated LGD rescue have such a rigid and frankly dumb position? Do you think there are any BC rescues with a similar rule? Could any of the rescue folks see a reason for such a hard and fast rule that discriminates against farm or working placements for these dogs? I mean, I get that some BCs are likely suited for neither farm life or working. But some are also not suited for small apartments or typical suburban pet owners, right? And to be fair, I am NOT asking rescue folk here to defend all other group's policies. Just wondering if people have run into this before and also noting the number of comments to this blog in relation to some of the resources shared elsewhere in this thread, apparently the public perception of onerous rescue requirements is rather widespread.
  19. Regarding the OP, Thunderhill (I think, so many pages!) was SPOT ON with the questioning of this argument's basic premise, namely that teaching a dog through behavioral modification having anything to do with a child developing normally within their own brains and through interacting with their environment on their own accord. She said it better, but YES, this. Because he posted it with so little additional comment, and because I also feel this is a very good critique of that article's central premise for its argument, I think it would be interesting to see what Mr. McCaig would have to say about this counter-argument. .... As an aside, a few years ago I remmeber during one of these threads Eileen questioning Kristine on whether she would ever use something so contrived as clickers with a human baby - I don't think she used the word contrived but I am trying to sum up the basic argument. At the time, I think I was pregnant and thought, like Eileen, wow yes, that idea does just seem weird and like it lacks some respect for the child. Now that I have a pack of drunken unhousetrained tribbles, I mean a toddler, I have thought of this often. Nothing about the clicker sounds that bad to me to use on a human child anymore, IF it would work, because at this stage not much does beyond distraction and management, which are a lot of work for ME But I have come to realize an essential distinction between kids and dogs, especially border collies: kids are not really very biddable. And some kids are just naturally way less compliant than others. It has made me really appreciate my dog, but as my daughter's verbal skills develop at an astonishing rate, it's also made me appreciate how easy language makes basic communication of even simple but COMPOUND ideas (such as not just: come front, but instead: come front and sit straight the very first time). And want to be better myself at communicating with my dog.
  20. I think this response does skirt around what I feel was a very good point of Mr. McCaig's. And is full of strawmen. First of all, having read this long thread I don't think any non-reinforcement-only trainer here "limits the means of communication that [they] use with dogs in training to those that dogs would use with one another". All have spoken at length about a range of variable methods, many entirely reinforcement-based, that they use in training. So I don't think that point was EVER at debate. Second, taking the nature and personality of the dog into acocunt is something quite different from attempting to speak their native language. Not saying you need to do anything with corrections, but I am not sure why it should be so hard of an argument for you to swallow that many of the rest of us DO feel that our training ease, efficacy, and outcomes are bettered by incorporating some of the dog's language into our interactions with them. I think there are good logical arguments for why this might help many of us. Not Kristine of course. ETA, also, since a verbal correction has been described by many here who use them as basically telling the dog no, try again, I would further argue that the use of "no" is NOT only used in dog language. It is one of the most basic and primary components of human to human language. Think if you are trying to communicate to someone you do not share language with at all - no words at all in common. One of the most basic pantomimes and likely the first you would understand from one another would be the pantomimes for both "yes" AND "no" (or hot and cold of your prefer). So I also think it is strange to eschew saying "no" or "cold" to your dog (because I do know your dogs have limits, that's not what I mean by saying "no") under the premise it is dog-dog only communication and present it in the same light as humans stooping to the level of "sniffing butts".
  21. Eeeeeeeeeeeeek! So cute! Thanks a lot. Now I need a puppy to quench my raging puppy breath jones.
  22. whelping :lol: Well, Odin got his booster this afternoon anyway. Hope it wasn't a booster for rabies (I do trust the vet though).
  23. Funny conversation I just had: Well first some background. I called the vet to set up a time for Odin's lepto booster. It has been a hard hard week for sleep in our house (toddler teething) and my brain is not working so well. So when I called all the sudden I could not remember what lepto was called and my brain would only come up with "listeriosis" which I KNEW was wrong. Me: I need to make an appointment for my dog to get a vaccine.... Receptionist: (interrupts) Rabies? Me: No, he need to get a booster for... for... um.... Receptionist: Rabies? Me: No, I promise its not rabies. It starts with a "L", not all dogs have to have it... Receptionist: (interrupts) Oh! Bordatella. Me: No, but closer! No, this starts with an "L", I'm sorry I keep wanting to say listeriosis but I know that's wrong. But is DOES start with an "L", it's for 4 bacterial strains at the same time, and you only usually give it to dogs that come into contact with wildlife feces etc... Receptionist: (interrupts) Oh yes. Must be distemper. Me: Um, isn't distemper a virus? And no, its not that either. I promise you it starts with an "L"... Receptionist: (interrupts) Oh, you're thinking of rabies. Its defintely rabies. Me: Listen, how about I pop on the internet for a second and call you right back. Receptionist: Look, I'm going to go ask the vet because I'm pretty sure you're talking about rabies. *drops phone* Me: (second phone touches cradle) OHHH!!! LEPTO!! IT'S LEPTO!!! I'm not sure but I think someone observing this conversation would be pretty sure one or both of us must have rabies, based on the level of cognitive functioning going on between us.
  24. Yes, this. I would not expect my dog to consider a teenage boy in the same category as adult, same as I can tell he distinguishes older child from toddler. Each of these ages has their own smells and unpredictable behaviors, and he treats each age group differently. That's not to say Odin doesn't like teens because of their energy and weird smell, actually I think he does generally like teens quite well, at least the nice ones I've introduced him to. He is accepting of unpredictability and genuinely likes children and other energetic people. But even with him, I could see a teen boy accidentally freaking him out just from being momentarily loud or vaulting over the furniture or riding on a DREADED UNTRUSTWORTHY skateboard. During this process I would be looking, especially in a dog Brady's age, to whether this really does seem specific to Ricky, or if Brady is becoming more generally reactive to certain types of people. It doesn't even have to be age, it could be height or deep voice or even just that he's a guy. Just so you can try and take a proactive stance if it is the early signs of a more general reactivity, or a more general "I don't do well with teens/loud men/tall/bearded/whatever". There is also the distinct possibility this is totally specific and an unlucky fluke. It sounds like you have a very good head on your shoulders with Brady, I'm hoping some of the CU work that was mentioned could help you be able to bring him to their house since there seems to be no other option. Maybe if he was too stressed he could hang out in your car at times while you were there, or something to get some distance and downtime.
  25. How old is Ricky? What is his normal behavior like? (I'm not saying anything like abuse at all happened, I'm just asking what the kid is like.) How is Brady around other kids? ETA I think BCs are superstitious and totally innocent mundane things can get them the wrong way sometimes.
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