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Posts posted by jenkshipley

  1. This could potenially be giardia. One of my Border Collies developed a swollen abdomen on Thanksgiving night several years ago. I rushed her to the emergency vet. She had very low protein and was leaking fluid from her intestines into her abdomen. I was told it could be many things. It turned out to be due to a very heavy load of giardia. If your vet did not do a stool sample and the liver and kidney values looked okay on the blood work, I'd have him do a fecal immediately.



  2. THANK YOU ALL!!! I took Rocket to Dr. Northington and he's doing so much better :) its all thanks to my wonderful BC Boards Family :)


    Great news! I am certain that Dr. Northington will be able to help you get better control of Rocket's seizures. Keep us posted!



  3. I visited the website and I am planning to call Dr. Northington on my lunch break. The only thing that worries me when it comes to vet trips is when I am asked to leave the room and Rocket can't see his mommy.....he doesn't listen so they always end up calling me back in.....:( and I can't stand to see anyone I love have needles in them or anything like that.



    I am so glad you are taking Rocket to Dr. Northington. You will not be asked to leave the room. Make sure you have your regular vet fax all of Rocket's records over to Metropolitian before your visit. If you have not had recent blood work done, they may ask you to do it. Dr. Northington is very good with the dogs and he is very willing to listen and discuss options.


    Let us know how things go.





  4. I am in PA what where are the two neurologist references


    I would suggest a trip to Dr. Northington. He is Fever's neurologist. He is accessible to regular patients via email once he sees your dog. This was an absolute lifesaver for me. My appointment was $125. I also order Fever's potassium bromide from them directly. It costs $48 for about a five month supply. I order her other medication, she is on zonisamide, a human anti-convulsant, from Costco because Dr. Northington told me to as it is cheapest through them. I believe they also can provide phenobarbital if that's what he decides to put your dog on. They mail medication directly to my house.


    Dr. Northington requires blood work once every 12 months and for the dog to see him - bearing any complications or need - once every 24 months.


    I cannot say enough good things about him. I have referred several people to him, two who drove several hours for an appointment.


    Here is his contact information:




    2626 Van Buren Avenue

    Norristown, PA 19403






  5. My five year old male border collie has had seizures since he was a year old. The vet has no idea what is causing them. I am scared because every time he has one they last longer than the previous one. Is there anything I can do besides the expensive medicine?



    Actually, neither of the two medications most commonly used to treat epilepsy in dogs are very expensive. You absolutely must get your dog on medication.


    I would strongly suggest that you find a veterinary neurologist and make an appointment. I spent close to $1500 dollars at my regular vet on testing and treatment before I ended up seeing a neurologist. Not only was the appointment very reasonable in cost, but under his expert care, my Border Collie has now been seizure free for over 15 months.


    I chose a rather expensive medication after discussion with Fever's neurologist because of the lower risk of side effects. However there are many options available now and quite a few, as I mentioned are reasonable in cost. The two most common are both decent in price, they are potassium or sodium bromide and/or phenobarbital.


    If your Border Collie has consistently had seizures since he was one and they are getting worse, I am afraid that they will continue to do so without the intervention of medication. There is an increased risk, with more severe or prolonged seizures of permanent brain damage, possible neurological damage, loss of vision or hearing or other problems.


    I am not sure where you live. If you are in or close to PA or NJ, I can give you two neurologist references. If you are in a different state, consult your local vet for a referral to a neurologist.


    Best regards,


    Jen Shipley

    ADCH Enna TM - Silver, MX, MXJ - rescued champion

    Ignited's Molten Rush, aka: Lava AAD

    Rising Sun's Hot to the Touch - aka: Fever - retired due to epilepsy

    Flute AAD, AX, OAJ, OAC, OGC, NAJ - retired

  6. Bimmer's Border Collie Rescue is trying to pull a very nice, young Border Collie from a shelter in Mt Vernon. We have a vet willing to pull her, give her a rabies vac and a health cert., a group willing to bring her back to PA for foster, and a volunteer willing to pick her up from the vet and start her on the way to Morehead to the Rowan shelter where the outreach group will be. I just need one person willing to meet the Mt Vernon person and help get the dog to Morehead. Does anyone know anyone I can ask?


    Thank you!!!


    Jen Shipley

  7. Greetings all ~


    Thus, we took Ash in with little thought of the matter ... and were dismayed when we got her back with, once again, the old-fashioned Frankenstein incision. Even more, she was miserable once we got her home. Yes, she is definitely a more pain-sensitive dog, so that bears knowing. But it was hard to watch her lie there in a lump, unmoving and unhappy for those first two days. She got better by the third and fourth days, but even then, sometimes she'd flinch and leap up with a yelp, scuttling off to find a new hiding place from her discomfort. We asked the vet about that, but they said, Oh, she's sensitive, just continue her meds. But hubby and I were not happy. Why was Ash's surgical site twice as long as Gael's had been? What changed?


    Well, for one, the older vet we used to have has left the practice, replaced by a much younger vet. We've dealt with her on minor things, and she's been great, but hubby and I were startled by the difference between this surgery and the same one done last year by the other vet.



    I have a very experienced vet who I love who is a certified laser surgeon. I had my 5 year old Border Collie spayed in the regular fashion several years ago. Her incision was very small - about the same as your first dog's. I just had my young Border Collie spayed and she was also laser spayed, which typically is an even smaller incision. However, it all depends on what the vet finds when they get in there. My youngster's incision was probably 4 or 4 1/2 inches long. Things tend to move around in there, especially if the dog is fully mature and it is even worse sometimes in dogs who have had litters. Sometimes the vet has to enlarge the incision based on what she finds when she get inside. My vet has literally had ovaries up near a bitch's armpits. It may be the inexperience of the vet or it may very well be that some of your girl's equipment had ended up in some hard to reach places. :)





    ADCH Enna TM - Silver, MX, MXJ - rescued champion

    Ignited's Molten Rush, aka: Lava AD

    Rising Sun's Hot to the Touch - aka: Fever - retired due to epilepsy

    Flute AAD, AX, OAJ, OAC, OGC, NAJ - retired

  8. "I don't completely agree with your reasoning that because the chemical comes from a plant that it is automatically safer than "chemical poisons."



    That's not what I said at all. I listed specific items, I have never actually made any type of general statement about natural chemicals being safe because they are natural. Cobra venom comes instantly to mind. :)


    Frankly, the ever increasing amount of supplements and natural remedies available all over the place now is kind of scary to me. I was handing Fever over 15 supplements a day at one point at my most frantic when her epilepsy first surfaced. Everywhere I turned I found a new list of supplements the would prevent seizures. I still run into people all of the time who tell me about X or Y who put their dog on blank and got them off medication. I went back to a raw diet, filter my dog's drinking water, and took them off almost everything. They get a joint supplement, fish oil, my old dog gets some supplements that help with arthritis and cranberry and that's it. Fever is on 2 types of medication to prevent seizures.


    I reasearch carefully and discuss something I am going to try with my holistic vet or a friend who is a homeopath before I use it and keep supplements to a minimum.


    "And the big drawback to many natural products is that clinical test data is lacking (not saying that the available test data for manmade products is stellar, but at least some exists)"



    I buy organic essential oils from a reputable company. And it is great that test data exists for manmade products, however I have yet to read multiple news articles or heard that the FDA is researching the safety of rose geranium essential oil, for example, as they are topical flea and tick products. To my knowledge, there haven't been multiple class action suits against a company selling essential oils as there have been against the maker of Rimadyl.


    Testing doesn't make something any safer necessarily either. And if something (phen phen comes to mind)is a natural product and causes serious adverse side effects, it gets discussed in the media.



    "over a period of years than does someone using manmade products. You think it's safer because it's derived directly from a natural living plant, but the data that supports those ideas doesn't really exist as far as I know."


    You are absolutely right. But my original point was and still remains that there is very clear proof that the manmade topical flea and tick products are in fact dangerious, can cause death and have caused many, many adverse reactions in dogs, often very serious ones.


    "And as for the "would you put it on your kids?" question, it's really not a valid comparison since companion animals have shorter lifespans and metabolize things differently than we do."


    Cancer in dogs is increasing every year, exponentially. Why do you think that is? And for those people who have kids and use topical flea and tick products, do you actually think your kids are not exposed to what is on your dogs? I know I don't want to be exposed to it any more then I want it on my dogs, personally.


    "I am not trying to be an apologist for the chemical manufacturers or anyone else. I use manmade chemicals when I think it makes sense to do so, and I use alternative medicine products when I think it makes sense to do so. I just think we need to be clear about claims of safety and efficacy in the face of a lack of data that supports such claims."


    Here we will have to agree to disagree. I will use a product that doesn't have any documented, undiscovered reaction or adverse effects over a product with repeated, documented cases that it already does. Herbalists and holistic practioners have been using essential oils, herbs, etc. for many, many years. I am much more confident that they would make any potential side effects known. I certainly don't trust drug companies - take Pfizer, for example, who tried to literally pay my friend off for her silence when her dog suffered a permanent, serious autoimmune disease caused byt one of their rabies shots and diagnosed in writing by U of P Vet Hospital - or who only attempted to make the formula of Rimadyl safer, my favorite example - after several class action lawsuits were settled.




  9. Yes, annoyingly so. I have 8 I think, and would happily divest myself of a few of them if one of my friends wanted to take some. That said, you could probably put a few hens out to free range and they'd eat whatever they'd find. I'm not sure why chickens aren't supposed to be as good as guineas at finding and eating ticks, but I can tell you that my hens will eat just about any insect (including grubs, larva, etc.), rodents, snakes, etc., that crosses their paths.




    Okay, I think this worked now. :) I am actually keeping my eye out for someone selling an old coop or large old dog house I can modify cheap. I am thinking of getting a few chickens and letting them have the range of the yard. Not guineas though, because of the carrying on. :)

  10. simply reasoning that a natural product wouldn't be likely to harm their pet).


    *I actually think you aren't giving the majority of dog owners enough credit. We aren't talking about your garden variety, buy Beneful and Hartz flea collars at the grocery store dog owner, but I would say that most pet owners do a bit of research or ask their vets before using a product. After the mass recall a few years ago, people are more cautious.


    I'm not opposed to people using whatever works for them, but ISTM that lack of reports of adverse reactions doesn't necessarily mean any product is safe for an individual dog.


    *Topical, conventional flea and tick preventavies are insecticides -poisons. I think people should be very clear about exactly what they are putting on their dogs or cats before they decide to do so. For those that use these year round or for several months at a time, this means constant, long term exposure to poisons. Would you use the same type of product on your children long term?


    I've considered using essential oils, but because I also have cats, I have to be concerned about the adverse (toxic) effects on them as well.


    *I would suggest discussing them with a holistic vet who can recommend those he or she feels will be effective without harming your cat. Essential oils from plants like lavendar and rose geramnium repel insects, they aren't insecticide although there are some plant extracts that do kill insects. The plants developed methods to protect themselves from insects which we borrow. There are times of the year where my property is muddy and I exercise my dogs off property almost every day. If I am doing so, I need to apply the spray containing essential oils each time I am planning to go.


    Well, um, if the tick is engorged, how did it do THAT with paralyzed mouth parts?


    *I have spoken to my own vet and other vets who all believe that the transmission times are not really concrete. The risk is higher the longer the tick is attached, common knowledge, but that doesn't really tell you that the bacteria cannot be transmitted before the 36 hour mark.


    Anyway, I mainly just wanted to point out to others who might be reading this thread that absence of reporting doesn't equal absence of actual adverse effects.


    * True, yet it doesn't change the fact that conventional topicals are poisons that kill instects that people are putting on their pets for long periods of time.


    PS. I can't figure out how to use the quote function on the new format.



  11. Mark -


    I undertand that things in nature contain chemicals. I get your point.


    However, I chose the items I chose on the recommendation of my holistic vet who, by the way, does not sell any of the conventional topicals or use them on her own dogs.


    There have been many reported cases of adverse reactions caused by the topical flea and tick products - Frontline, Frontline Plus, Advantix, Bio Spot, etc. and some deaths. FINALLY this is being studied, which is backwards in my opinion, but typical of medications sold for pets.


    I have never read or heard about a severe adverse reaction or death caused by Buck Mountain Parasite Dust or essential oil spray. I am careful about what essential oils I do use, due to my dog's epilepsy, also discussed with my vet, but I find they are very effective.


    Products are on the market for dogs that carry a risk of serious, adverse reaction that can lead to death. These products would not be approved for use in humans with the same level of risk involved. If you want a great example of this, um - Rimadyl. It started out a possible human drug, had the risk of horrible side effects, now it is being pushed extensively for dogs.


    There is no concrete proof of how long a tick actually has to be attached to a dog before Lyme or other TBDs are transmitted. My dog's litter mate, my mother's dog and two good friend's dogs all were current on Frontline, applied properly and all ended up with Lyme. My dog's sister had Lyme, RMSF and Elirchisosis all at once and almost died.


    The myth that topical insecticides do not permeate the skin is simply not true.


    Do the natural alternatives present a risk of adverse reaction? Perhaps. When cases are reported as they are with the conventional topicals, well I may rethink what I use on my dogs - again.




  12. Julie -

    I live on about 1.4 acres - about 2/3 or a little less of which is fenced. I have plenty of bugs, just battled a Carpenter ant infestation in my kitchen this summer. I also have frogs, toads, turtles that pass thru, etc.


    I treated 3 summers ago quite a bit. When I moved there there was a very heavy tick population. The summer before this last summer, I think I sprayed with Dove once in or around the beginning of June. I had a few dog ticks show up. This past summer I did not have to do a thing. My yard is kept in such a way that it is unfriendly for ticks, and I keep a well cleared perimeter between my yard and the wooded property surrounding the fence.


    If I had a farm or if I moved to a larger property - I would make my own tick tubes and put them out twice a year, use sulfur and lime on the ground and perhaps put up deer rubs if necessary. I know people who have used all three, have a lot more property in my area and have had success with those methods.


    Oh, and if I didn't live in suburbia where the neighbors would be less then pleased, I would have Guinea Hens.




  13. I do not use any chemical based topical or oral tick or flea preventatives despite living in a very high density area for Lyme. One of my dogs has epilepsy and her vet feels any topicals on her or the dogs that share household space would be risky. Before having a dog with epilepsy, I rarely used any of those producets and stopped using all together any of the products a few years ago. I strongly feel that the products are not safe or healthy. I feel the exact same way about the vaccines available.


    I also happen to know four people personally whose dogs all became infected with Lyme, 2 with other TBDs as well, while their owners were regularly using Frontline.


    My dogs, Fever did have Lyme. We treated with an aggressive dose of Doxy, supporting with milk thistle and SAM E and followed that with 90 days of Teasel based on the suggestion of a herbalist who has used it successfully to treat Lyme in people. Fever is now negative on a Snap4.


    I also have a dog who tests positive but has never shown symptoms. Although the vet is retired and I cannot get records, there is a possibility that she received a Lyme vaccine before I knew better. I know that my dog that passe 3 years ago of renal failure did recieve a Lyme vaccine. I have treated my dog who tests positive with Doxy and I will either of my other two dogs with Doxy if they ever show positive on a Snap4.


    Instead of using insecticides on my dogs, I put quite a bit of effort into treating my property. While this was a bit of work during the first years, I spend very little time treating the yard now at all. I have had exactly 2 dog ticks appear on my dogs in the past 2 years and no deer ticks. I did remove the dogs from the property for 48 hours and treat with an insecticide once, mow and remove the cuttings and then followed up dish soap in a hose sprayer every 3 weeks or so. I keep a perimter around the fenced area of my yard well cleared.


    When off property I used Buck Mountain Parasite Dust and an essential oil spray made out of rose geranium and lavender oils in vodka and distilled water.


    Interestingly enough, I attended an agility trial the weekend before last and the only dog I pulled any deer ticks off of was my foster dog who came treated with Frontline less then 30 days ago.




    ADCH Enna TM - Silver, MX, MXJ - rescued champion

    Ignited's Molten Rush, aka: Lava

    Rising Sun's Hot to the Touch - aka: Fever - retired due to epilepsy

    Flute AAD, AX, OAJ, OAC, OGC, NAJ - retired

  14. I just watched the 2nd video, which I missed when reading the trail of posts the first time.


    Pip very clearly told anyone who was listening that he was not comfortable with greeting the dog on the video.

    I could see the reaction coming way before it happened. This wasn't this reaction of a dog aggressive dog, but a dog who is fearful and unsure of other dogs.


    I also see clear signals that Pip is worried and unsure about the other dog throughout the second video. I know that many on the board consider herding behavior when not directed at livestock prey drive, I personally feel its all the same thing and I have seen many Border Collies who intently follow other dogs around as if they were herding a flock of sheep and who are completely focused on doing so. I think you have that going on as well as fear and uncertainty in how to go about interacting with the other dogs. I don't see an aggressive or dangerous dog, but I can certainly sympathize with your concern. I would not subject my own dogs to the stress of having this type of dog in their home. Its not an easy siutation.


    You have your hands full and the situation for Pip is not ideal since there are many dogs and you don't have a place where he can be without seeing or hearing them. I would address how he is to behave when crated or separated and keep him as far away from the other dogs as possible when you are crating him. I'd exercise him as much as is safe for him while he recovers as often as is safe. I would try to teach him to play with toys and interact with you. I'd expose him to the dogs behind a baby gate or fence while supervised for as many brief periods as you can and I would provide carefully controlled and very brief periods of time where he is near other dogs but not allowed to practice the herding behavior and not approached for now by the other dogs.


    I would immediatly be doing some clicker and food work and this dog would eat only while working so that he gets as clicker motivated as possible as quickly as possible. I would then use the clicker to reward behavior near the dogs. If you can get him to turn his focus from the other dogs when asked and you can get him to relax in the presence of the other dogs, you may be able to move forward and get him properly engaging with them. I did see two instances on the videos that I felt were definitely the awkward, and hesitant, but obvious invitations to play.




  15. This was a few minutes after they were initially introduced and Joey was already quite done with the situation by then. I also didn't get the initial attacking on video, but I think you can get a sense of Pip's behavior from the video anyway. After we put Joey away, we decided to up the ante a little and bring out a dog that wouldn't be such a pushover. Same thing happened. That dog, too, wanted nothing but to get out of the situation as soon as possible.


    Pip's behavior is very disturbing to me. He seems to be treating the other dogs as prey.




    If I brought this dog home to foster and it behaved in this manner, I would -


    A. Have the dog on a line at all times so that I could correct any behavior I did not like immediately.

    B. Have the dog muzzled so he could not make contact with one of my dogs with his teeth.

    C. Immediately establish consequencines for behavior you do not like.

    D. Try to set up an area where the dog could interact with the other dogs safely, like from behind a baby gate.

    E. Correct the barking, whining behavior - use a spray bottle, and click and treat for quiet as well as correcting noise.


    Was he neutered when he came into the shelter or very recently nuetered?

    I see some behavior where his carriage and tail make me think he is a dog who likes to be in charge, but at least in the part of the interaction that you have on video, I don't see outright aggression. I have had quite a few young, male, teenage delinquent fosters in that past who were very fixated on the other dogs, had no idea how to interact at first and who spent most of their time herding the other dogs. I have had a few who would drive in and nip.


    I do not put up with that behavior and I make it very clear that it will not be tolerated. I would have been much more firm and clear in my corrections and I would have been immediately removing the dog from the presence of the other dog the instant I saw behavior I did not like. Think of it as a time out. I would not have allowed direct interaction off lead after the initial bad behavior.


    I certainly would not allow him to stress your dogs or subject the less confident dogs to his rude or aggressive behavior. I would practice very brief periods of interaction as frequently as you can with your more confident dogs who are not going to be tolerant of rude behavior but with that dog on a line and muzzled.


    If there is any way to find him a different foster situation with less dogs in the foster home, it may make things a bit easier, but he is going to need some time and effort.


    Great looking dog with a beautiful structure. I hope he settles in for you.



  16. My 12 year old Border Collie also goes back to O'Brae. She is a fantastic dog and I have searched in the past for the lines still being bred without much success. She goes back to O'Brae's lines on her mother's side and Nathan Mooney's Max on her father's. Of course, I am a sports person and not a herding person, but she did decently on sheep for the few years I took sporadic lessons and she did not see them until she was 6 or 7. I'd be very interested if you find someone with related dogs.



  17. I have been assured by the former owners of Innova that per the sales agreement with P&G they will continue to use their own factories, the same sources of ingredients as they have been using previously and the diets will not be mass produced for sale in grocery stores or big name pet store chains.


    It says not on their website -




    Everyone I know who used to feed it now doesn't, so they have lost a lot of business, at least in the dog sport world. I guess if I were feeding it and I wanted to stay with it that I would just be watching carefully for any changes.



  18. Jen, do you have any references showing that Innova diets have ever been recalled? I've fed them for years and keep track of dog food recalls. As far as I can remember it is one of the few brands that has NEVER had a recall. Innova has their own factories, so there is no cross contamination. I have been assured by the former owners of Innova that per the sales agreement with P&G they will continue to use their own factories, the same sources of ingredients as they have been using previously and the diets will not be mass produced for sale in grocery stores or big name pet store chains.


    According to the sales people at PetSmart, they will soon be carrying Evo so I don't know that that assurance is true. I don't think pet food companies have to announce when they change ingredients. P&G is an entirely different entitiy then Natura. I am no longer comfortable with the food. I used to recommend Innova when I was asked about kibble and occasionally fed some canned Evo, but now its off my list. I can't remember ever hearing of a recall, but I switched to Orijen fairly soon after all of the recalls started and stopped paying as much attention.

  19. I guess the coyotes around here didn't read that part of the instruction manual. I see them in corn fields, pulling down ears, and I see coyote scat full of blackberry seeds this time of year. I have also seen them grazing on oats, eating blueberries, and just plain old pasture grass.


    Sure, Coyotes are opportunists. So are wolves. And dogs. Leave some odorous trash out where a wolf/fox/dog/coyote can get to it, they are going to eat it. It doesn't mean that their main source of food is not wild caught prey.




  20. Interesting. It makes sense that a facility would sell the stuff it can't sell for human consumption at good rates to people who want it for raw feeding, but I find it odd that this isn't the case everywhere or that there aren't some controls in place to make sure that the meat being sold is in fact not being fed to humans.


    That is odd. I wonder why? We buy from quite a few suppliers - 8 or 9 who all sell us seconds. We also have some private farmers who sell rabbit and duck and some other items. This is the first year that I will actually (unless my friend is a really bad shot or has really bad hunting luck) be paying to have an entire deer processed. Since they dress the deer in the field, I won't be able to get organ meats, but I do plan on asking for everything and anything that can be fed to the dogs to be cut down to size and just packaged up, including bones for recreation. It will be interesting to see if the butcher has an issue with doing that for me. I doubt it since the person I often get venison from gets the venison from a butcher in huge quantities during deer season herself. I also used to drive over an hour to another butcher who sold venison during deer season.


    If I could just bring myself to hunt, I'd have organ and tripe too. :rolleyes:



  21. I have to say that you're pretty lucky then Jen. I get venison for free since my housemate hunts, and I guess I could have gotten the latest group of roosters for free (plus the cost of raising them), but didn't have time to butcher myself, so paid the butcher to do it. I didn't add up the weight of all the meat I got back, but it cost me $71 and I'm pretty sure it wasn't 71 pounds of meat, but can't say that for a fact.


    I still can't wrap my head around a company (Eberly) that can produce free-range poultry and then process them by hand and charge less than what you'd pay at the grocery store, but if what they claim on their website, and what you say you pay for it, is true, then I guess y'all are truly blessed.


    I know we have a lot of variety for a great price in this area and due to the co-op. I do hoof it out quite a distance on occasion for a good buy. There are some suppliers who sell in this area and make trips out to meet various groups as well.


    I never said I was a raw feeding purist. I am very cautious due to the last few years of recalls and plant issues on what commercial dog food I will feed, but as I did say my dogs do get kibble once a week and when I travel or someone stays at my house when I travel. I just very recently switched a dog that was eating kibble back to raw and I have switched back and forth from raw to kibble and back again a few times in the past 10 years. The last switch back to a raw diet after a few years of Orijen happened when my one Border Collie first developed epilepsy. My vet, who is homeopathic and promotes a raw diet, and I were trying to rule out possible causes. Changing her diet didn't work, but I found my dogs were being fed a really good diet for probably half or a little over half of what I was spending to feed them Orijen with fresh food and dairy supplementation. I was getting tartar build up which is now gone and my dogs love the raw diet.


    Eberly's, Koch's and some of the other suppliers sell us their seconds, organs or processing scraps for great prices. It is product that they can't sell at retail (like a Cornish hen with one wing missing) or 50 lb frozen blocks of what Koch's calls lima meat, which is a mix of dark and light meat scraps collected during processing the stuff they can sell and then ground.


    The fish supplier sells us chowder fish, which are pieces again cut off in processing that they sell to people or restaurants to make soup and aren't pretty filets they can sell at retail and salmon or other fish heads for the same reason.


    Frankly, you are getting, at best, human grade meats in any kibble that you buy which are no better or no worse then anything you get raw whether direct at a supplier or at a grocery store, so I don't much care about the what free range arguments mean or don't mean. I was just pointing out to an earlier post that there are really good quality suppliers who offer cost effective alternatives to raw feeders. If I can get antibiotic and steroid free and animals that aren't fed crap, I do it. If I see something on sale for under $1.50 a lb at the grocery store that I'd like to add in as variety, I buy it. I average out at about $1 a lb.


    For every person that comes up with research that shows that dogs are different anatomically or have developed to eat different foods then wolves there are just as many people who can show you research that shows that they are not. I did my own research as did the vets I use that promote a raw diet and I don't really intend or plan on arguing the point. Personally I believe this is a species of animal that developed on the Earth for far longer then people have had it domesticated eating raw prey. Any related animal that is not domesticated eats a raw diet. I am happy I am able to feed a raw diet to my dogs.




  22. she noted that raw feeding is NOT cheap. As someone who actually raises my own meat, I can say that I can get a sheep butchered at a price that comes out to roughly $1 per pound (hanging weight), but that's only if I completely ignore the expense of raising that sheep, not to mention transport to and from the butcher. So I have to wonder about the claims about getting meat for such low costs, unless that meat is factory farmed in such volumes that economies of scale kick in. And then I would have to question just how healthy meat raised and processed in such a way could be. If the point of feeding raw is to avoid all the "contaminants" present in processed foods, then it would make sense to get your raw foods locally, from farmers who are raising naturally or organically, and there's no way you're going to get that for $1/lb.


    I guess it depends on where you live and what is available to you.


    I get venison scraps for less then $1 a pound and I actually have someone scheduled to give me an entire deer this year. I'll pay for processing which will average out to less then $1 a lb actually . We order regularly from Eberly's chicken which is antibiotic, steroid free, free range chicken. I get cornish hen seconds (meaning something got damaged in processing like a wing or drumstick) for $.85 lb, I buy whole grass fed beef tripe for $1.25 a lb, Koch's natural turkey hearts, livers, meat scraps, etc for around $1 a lb, farm raised eggs for $2 a dozen. I also get veal from farmers occasionally for $1.25 a lb and had a chance but no room to buy a half or quarter of a grass fed, non-steroid or antibiotic, farm raised steer for about $1.65 a lb w/ processing last winter. We also order fresh caught fish seconds from a fish market. Buying in bulk through a co-op definitely give us more economical options but anyone can buy for very similar prices from the suppliers that we buy from in this area.





  23. That depends upon who you ask. The problem is many people think that the order Carnivora defines the diet of the species which is not the case.


    That's very true. It all depends on who you ask. Ask most conventional vets in practice today and they'll suggest you feed Science Diet or Royal Canin, neither are foods I would ever feed my dogs. The debate over proper diet for dogs is still raging and will be for a long time to come, I am sure.


    Dogs have been genetically proven to decend from wolves. Wolves, in ideal situations, where game is plentiful and they are able to hunt freely without persecution from man, eat a 100% meat diet. They do not eat the contents of the stomach, they do not forage for other sources of food. David Mech wrote about this after studying grey wolves for many years in his book - Wolves: Behavior, Ecology, and Conservation, which I have read.


    The dog's digestive system is identical to that of a wolf, even that of a chihuahua. :rolleyes:


    I fed a pulped veggie mix for many years when feeding raw. My dogs did fantastic on it. I don't feed veggies now. I have fed kibble that includes grain, grain free kibble, and raw. My dogs did well on all of the diets. I do believe dogs can do quite well on a good kibble supplemented with some natural foods - keifer, yogurt, cottage cheese, etc. I am much more skeptical of the quality of mass produced foods now then I was several years ago and I won't feed them. Orijen or a few others that I feel are superior in their care in the production process and quality, absolutely.


    However, if considering what constitutes the diet that most accurately reflects what wolves(and therefore dogs) developed in nature to eat, it is a raw, prey model diet. You'll never find a wolf, fox, coyote, jackal or wild dog grazing on wheat or oats or chomping some raw potatoes or grinding their chicken up into meal first. That's for sure.



  24. the only reason i can afford Orijen is because i have only 1 dog :rolleyes:) most people with multiple dogs would find it very expensive to feed this diet and i know if i had more than 1 dog i would not be feeding it...


    It is expensive. I currently feed raw, just switched the dog who was having some issues several months ago with the variety of a raw diet back to raw and she is doing well. I do give a kibble meal - Orijen, sometimes Acana, once a week because I use kibble when I travel.


    Dogs are carnivores and do not need carbs. Wild carnivores who do not live on trash from human settlements consume little, if any, carbohydrates. Dogs certainly can consume carbs, but they aren't neccesary and they are not consumed as efficiently as fat and protein.


    If you are looking for grain fee feeding but Orijen is pricey for you (it is pricey) you can feed a raw diet very cost effectively. If you are uncomfortable with raw you can feed a cooked diet. Orijen is approximately $2 - $2.50 a pound where I purchase it. I feed four dogs.


    I feed a full prey model raw diet, rich in variety for an average of $1 per pound. I am lucky enough to have a raw feeding co-op in my area, but there are a lot of ways to source inexpensive raw sources on your own.


    The problem with grain free foods like Taste of the Wild, Evo, Wellness, Merrick, etc. is the fact that they are produced in a mass production plant that produces multiple brands of food. There have been numerous recalls from every one of these plants and, to me, it isn't worth the risk. Evo and Innova were just bought and will soon be mass produced and sold to Petco and PetSmart, a sure sign that a food is mass produced and quality control is risky.






    ADCH Enna TM - Silver, SACH, GCH, SCH, JCH, RCH, MX, MXJ - rescued champion

    Rising Sun's Hot to the Touch - aka: Fever - retired due to epilepsy

    Flute AAD, AX, OAJ, OAC, OGC, NAJ - retired

    Ignited's Molten Rush, aka: Lava - BC puppy in training

    Kasi EAC,EGC,EJC, OA,OAJ - (1992-2007)

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