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laurie etc

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Everything posted by laurie etc

  1. I had pneumonia a few months ago, and along with the antibiotics I was given an Albuterol "inhaler/puffer". From working in a horse hospital, I know Albuterol is pretty standard protocol for horses with pneumonia, so maybe check with your vet about prescribing a "puffer" for Flick. I would think if humans and horses are OK with it, dogs should be too. I would also check into some sort of immune system enhancement, since pneumonia could be a signal that her general immune system is compromised. Another random thought, did your vet do a chest xray? If not, it would be a good thing to get a baseline shot, to make sure that the antibiotics are clearing up the problem in a few weeks, and/or to rule out other issues like tumors. Laurie
  2. Anyone breeding with the "intent" of producing Border Collies for other than stock work is contributing to dilution of the breed's intent and purpose. That is not to say that there aren't different levels of stock work; and whether one is breeding for "Open Trial" workers, or useful working farm dogs should not label that breeder as having a hand in the breed's demise. Breeding proven top-level working dogs certainly "should" increase the odds of producing top level workers, but that isn't a given; and multiple bitch owners breeding to a "popular" trial dog - concentrating the gene pool - may or may not be in the breed's best interest. I think by mandating that only "top level workers" or high profile dogs owned by accomplished handlers are appropriate to breed, you may be setting a standard that "throws the baby out with the bathwater". Just like mandating that breeders should only breed CEA clear to clear, and culling all the carriers would be an obviously wrong move; so would culling all the "less than stellar" or unproven dogs from a gene pool. How does anyone really know what would be lost by culling the "yellow" and "orange" from the gene pool? I think breeders (like you and some others on this board), who breed thoughtfully, selectively and infrequently are to be commended. It is obvious that money is not the motive for those breeding decisions, and that they have the best interest of the breed at heart. I do question the motives of anyone that breeds multiple (5+) litters yearly, whether for "stock work", sport, or for pets. To me, income-based breeding puts a breeder in a position where they may or may not have the best interest of the breed at heart, even if they are producing top-notch dogs. Are they really doing the breed a service by flooding the market with their puppies? Are they keeping track of more than the "good/working" puppies' progress? Are their puppies in non-working pet or sport homes sold on non-breeding registration? Are they willing to take back and/or rehome puppies from their breedings? As stewards for the breed, it's not just the puppy you produce and sell, but knowing what happens with those puppies over the long-term, and letting those results steer future breeding (or culling) decisions. Traditionally, "well-bred" means what's on the pedigree, regardless of who owns the dog, or how it works. Same with horses. I guess we differ in our "semantics". I don't think I ridiculed or defended anybody. Just posed some questions for discussion. Call me the Devil's Advocate, I guess. Gotta go sort and move some sheep. With my candy-colored Pro-Novice Dog, and Kenny's BYB Pro-Novice dog. Gee, I hope we can get it done. I'll check back this afternoon. Laurie
  3. Well, some folks were blaming "Sports breeders" for the Border Collies' doom. Then it changed to "Novice Handler Breeders" whose feet the problem lies at. Somewhere along the way the surplus Rescue dogs got tagged for taking homes away from more deserving "well bred" working puppies (who can't find working homes for some reason - I still don't understand that one), and so on... Just wondered if anyone actually had facts to back up these accusations... It would be interesting to know. And what would be considered "well bred" - again only red bullseye dogs? Would that include all Open level dogs, or only the ones who qualify for or run in the Finals? What about unproven relatives of said dogs? What about dogs who run at the Finals but produce serious medical issues (orthopedic problems, epilepsy, late onset deafness, cryptorchids)? What about their close relatives who never leave the farm? How small would the gene pool actually become if it was limited in any one decade to "Finals" dogs and their working progeny? Laurie
  4. So does anybody REALLY know - percentage wise - how many puppies are registered at ABCA by: 1 Professional Stockmen 2 Usbcha "Hobby" Trialers 3 Novice "Hobby" Trialers 4 Small Farm "Working" litters 5 BYB's Pet litters 6 Sports litters 7 Puppy mills Just wondering... Laurie
  5. Yes, some of those those darn "sheep" dogs from the East seem to be talented enough to take on the cattle dogs from the West in their own backyard and come home with prizes. It's great to know those kind of dogs are out there. Wow, Julie, that's a tad harsh, over-generalized and elitist. I think it quite depends on an individual's access to mentorship and knowledge; as well as their research, experience, dedication and personal motives... not just the level that they may or may not be trialing. If someone wants to breed a litter, and puts the necessary time, thought ,and research into it; starts with decent working stock, breeds "up" to a complimentary dog, and stands behind their puppies... I don't see that as being a negative for the breed. Gee, I guess I haven't seen the ammendment where ABCA decided that only puppies from USBCHA handlers can be registered. Laurie
  6. I agree. Sue R relayed about her "nicely bred, flashy, flank off of the pressure" dog not being able to get the job done on runaway cattle, and her gritty "ugly" dog jumping in and accomplishing it. I think in a farming situation, Joe Farmer is gonna appreciate dog # 2,and feel like taking dog # 1 out behind the barn. This is why it's important for modern breeders to keep in mind that it's the "whole package" that needs to be kept alive, not just the "trial package". It's worrisome to me that Melanie noted how many (75%?) of the dogs in her collection of pedigrees (mostly collected at prominent Trials) were related by at least one grandparent. Are modern breeders limiting the gene pool too much by only breeding top trial dogs or closely related dogs to other top trial dogs? How many ABCA Border Collies today are bred for Trialing vs Farm Work vs Sport vs "Pets" ? It would be interesting to know the statistics... Laurie
  7. Just a quick example - I weaned my lambs last week - almost 5 months old and as big as their dams, and never worked except sparingly with their dams (to vaccinate and deworm) since I moved them to a new farm soon after lambing. Yesterday, I needed to catch them into the run-in shed to grab one out that someone was there to buy. They are wild as March hares - and don't know about "coming to a person with a bucket" at all. (In fact, people are probably just as scary to them as dogs, without their mamas there to "calm them".) I absolutely could not have gotten the job done with out a dog. Pod reads lambs so well, is patient with them, but anticipates their crazy, flighty movement. It took no time at all to settle them and have them decide to walk like little soldiers into the shed, where Pod held them in a corner until we could tie up a makeshift gate behind them. No amount of "machinery" or manpower could have accomplished what she did so easily. Without a dog, we would have been there all night trying to corral the little buggers, and would probably have ended up with injured, exhausted sheep. On another note- reading all these posts makes me wonder if the "bullseye" shouldn't be the tough, dogs that will walk into pressure, and get the job done efficiently, rather than specifically "trial winners". **Edited to add- I went back and re-read Denise's Bullseye Analogy, and she does use top "workers", not top "trialers". It is from this board that I keep hearing that only Open level dogs should be bred to Open level dogs. ** I've heard a number of comments from old-timers and experienced sheepdog people from both sides of the pond that so many of the dogs winning trials nowadays are the "easy", softer dogs who tend to train up quickly and want to stay off pressure. Makes them easier to train for the "weekend warriors", and quicker to get on the trial field, but they may not possess "the whole package" for hard ranch/hill work. A couple of the old timers I've talked to prefer a tough, hard headed dog that will stand up to training and "take a lickin' and keep on tickin'". So are the "weekend warriors" changing the breed from its original purpose, too? Food for thought. Laurie
  8. WOW- It's a good thing I have a hurricane day to catch up on all these posts - I still haven't read every single one in all the threads, but I think I have the gist of what's been discussed. Here's my take on how to preserve the working border collie - from a personal and overall standpoint. This opinion is based on my limited knowledge - from 8 years of owning and training ABCA registered Border Collies for: lower level USBCHA style trialing (hopefully I have an OPEN prospect coming along), general farm use, AHBA trialing; and being deeply involved in the sport of Dog Agility (teaching, competing) for over 12 years. 1) I agree with Melanie's point that ABCA Border Collie Breeders greatly need to utilize the "non-breeding" option for registration. It's easy, cheap, and can be quickly reversed. The breeder just needs to register the pups in his own name to start with, and then transfer pre-registered non-breeding pups to the buyers. And if the breeder is selling to known working homes, a litter can have some non-breeders and some breeders sent in at the same time - just by designating which is which. Then, any time the breeder wants (for instance, when/if the non-breeder pup shows acceptable working ability and has gotten any requested clearances), that pup may be turned into a card-carrying breedable Border Collie. The responsibility and decision rests with the breeder. The breeder may not be able to keep a buyer from breeding, but can keep a buyer from registering pups. I'm not positive, but I would think that AKC would only register these pups as "limited" as well, since that is what is listed on the ABCA papers that must be sent in with an Open registration request. IMO, a better option if you're selling to sports people who desire AKC registration, is to also register the pups yourself as Limited (non-breeding/non-conformation showing) or have a contract in place that requires AKC registration only after neutering. Other that Rosanne, I haven't heard of too many Agility competitors who want the responsibility and hormonal challenges of intact dogs - they are going to spay/neuter when the growth plates close anyways. 2) ABCA should become more proactive educating breeders in the "salvation of the working Border Collie" project. They should encourage non-breeding registration for other than "genetic defect puppies". They should educate breeders about how simple it is to reverse the non-breeder status for dogs that demonstrate working ability. They should make it seem "the norm" so that buyers don't think they are getting an inferior product when they buy a non-breeder puppy. Maybe they should simply add a "check box" next to each puppy's slot on the back of the form instead of requiring a separate piece of paper for each puppy. That's how AKC does limited registration - the breeder simply checks a box. 3) Stud dog owners should require bitch owners to do the same. 4) Get some figures before you blame "sport collie breeders" for the breed's slippery road downhill. I probably know (or know of) almost all of the reputable "big price tag" sport breeders in this country and some in Canada. They are FAR OUTNUMBERED by the "pet breeders", who have jumped on bandwagon to make a few bucks. Check out puppyfind.com - there were over 300 Border Collie puppies listed there today- anywhere between $200 and $800. And where did most of the pet breeders get their "breeding" dogs? Not from the high dollar sport breeders - who mostly have iron-clad spay neuter contracts, or keep other types of control over those pups for life. We have Border Collies in our agility classes who wouldn't know a sheep if it hit them in the head (mostly from byb's) - and some very talented "sports bred" agility dogs who also have proven that they could just as well be working sheepdogs if their owners were inclined that way. But, the agility bug bites worse than the herding bug, so mostly people with the top level agility dogs don't advance much in sheepdog training. 5) Personally, I wouldn't buy a pup from anyone I considered a "Sports Breeder". I want it all - the whole border collie package, with an emphasis on above average stock work and natural (not mechanical) talent. The sports breeders I know (with one exception) ARE concerned with keeping the working dog in the puppies they produce. They know that's where the talent, drive and ability from. They mostly do not intermingle Barbies into the mix. And if they do, obviously those pups can't be ABCA registered. They are concerned for the breed's health, longevity, soundness, temperament and work ethic. They maybe don't have the knowledge to adequately test their dogs on stock, but they look for pedigrees that have produced stock dogs consistently and recently, and many of them are well acquainted with people who can test their dogs, or know the working pedigrees. Maybe the "average" working breeders should take notice of this and become more concerned and educated if they want to keep their piece of the pie in the marketplace. (I probably wouldn't buy a pup from a farmer who raises pups in a dark, damp barn, doesn't socialize them, doesn't check healthy on the parents; no matter how fantastic the parents "work". ) I have more thoughts, but having a hard time typing since I snipped of the tip of one finger trimming hooves on Wednesday. Enough for now. Flame if you like. Laurie
  9. I've been lurking today and trying to sell some sheep - but I read this thread and thought I'd respond with some of my own experience. I work my dogs on sheep (primarily) and also have run/trained in agility with a three of them. I teach agility, and have been doing it for about 12 years. I have competed three dogs successfully in both agility and herding trials at the Novice/Pro Novice so it's not mutually exclusive; but I can almost promise you that your Border Collie trained to excel in agility (the way it is now- not 10 years ago) will not be a candidate for USBCHA Open trialing. IMO, it's the mindset you develop in the dog for agility that will work against you. Whole different mindset for stockwork. In agility, quick reactions, pumped adrenaline, break neck speed, throwing caution to the wind is what that game is about. You can have a dog trained that way and finish AHBA and AKC "all-breed" herding championships, where the stock is fairly well broke, and the dog is never out of voice command range. I've finished 4 AHBA Championships in short order, 2 of the 4 on dogs who also do agility at the Excellent/Masters level. The mindset a dog needs to train/compete successfully at the Open level in sheepdog trials is so entirely different - he needs to be tuned in to the handler, but in charge of the sheep; be slow and thoughtful as necessary, authoritative as necessary; alternating lighting fast reaction with subtle, near-motionless control. To do that he can not be pumped up to the hilt. He cannot just react quickly- he can't think of sheep as a "game" - it's dead serious work. He has to listen and think and feel, and much of that comes from genetics; but also also comes from training and lifestyle. I find my most success in either venue when I take training breaks from one or the other and concentrate on one sport. And if I had a dog that I thought could really succeed at the Open sheepdog level - first - I'd work on control and sheepdog mindset; second, I'd not do anything with that dog that was counter productive to that mindset. Laurie
  10. Five "dog broke" grade Katahdin wethers for sale. Worked lightly, but definitely not knee-knockers. One 3 year old, Two 2 year olds, Two yearlings. Also, five 2008 wethers to be weaned in August. All are fat, shed completely, healthy, up to date on CD/T and dewormed. $75 each or make an offer for the package. Laurie Anderson 304-821-1157 (near Winchester VA) 5 white and tan wethers for sale - Red Ram (in the back) not for sale Eileen - I saw another "sheep for sale" listing here, but feel free to delete this if not appropriate. thanks!
  11. Thanks Mark! I found that website too, and finally called this morning. After listening to about 10 Automated Voice Messages,punching option codes, and getting disconnected twice; I finally reached a "human" in customer billing. For anyone interested, she told me that the current fee for reading Hip Xrays is $50 (check made out to Cornell University); and to send the xrays to the following address: Cornell University VMTH Box 36 Campus Road Ithaca NY 14853
  12. Hi Mark - A friend wants to send hip xrays in to Cornell for a reading, but the link to Cornell at the end of the previous thread (above) is no good. Any idea how much the consult is now, and the mailing address to send them to? Laurie
  13. Keepstone Farm Novice Trial July 26 and July 27 2008 Two trials each day Sanctioned by VBCA Entries open June 19. All entries must be accompanied by check. Entries close July 9 or when trial is full. No refunds after this date. Campers welcome; no hook-ups. Make checks payable to: Susan Rhoades Send entries to : Laurie Anderson 573 Cider Drive Bunker Hill, WV 25413 $20.00 per dog per class: Nov/Nov, Pro/Nov, and Ranch. Directions and more info at: www. keepstonefarm.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Owner/handler----------Dog------Sat Trial 1/Sat Trial 2------Sun Trial 1/Sun Trial 2 ______________ _________ _________/_________ _________/__________ ______________ _________ _________/_________ _________/__________ ______________ _________ _________/_________ _________/__________ I understand that I am responsible for any cost incurred as a result of damages caused by me or my family or any dogs to facilities, animals or persons; and that in the event of personal injury, or damages to my property or animals, I will not hold Keepstone Farm, the owners, operators employees, or workers responsible. Signature ______________________________________Date___________ Address ______________________________________________________ E-mail ____________________________ Phone # ____________________ Keepstone_Farm_VBCA_entry_form_7_08.doc
  14. I'll start this off with a shot of my 1 day old Katahdin trips born Monday morning out of a 2 year old ewe. (She had a single last year - so she made up for it this year). Hey Mark and Renee - any pictures of your babies? Laurie
  15. Maybe she was trying to help your dogs to "Eat More Chicken!" Laurie
  16. Must be something in the air - I had my first two lamb last evening/early this morning as well. Normally pasture lambing, but I'm still spooked by the coyote problem from last Fall, so I decided at the last minute (just before dark) to bring the two eminent ones into a stall (since they had chosen the farthest, darkest end of the pasture for their "spot".) I was so proud of my little Pod - she calmly brought them up, then basically had to back them from the paddock into to the barn, all the while being threatened and head butted by the ewe who was in labor. (Since it was dark, I didn't realize it til she was in the stall, but the lamb's feet were already sticking out, and that ewe was NOT happy about having to come inside!) All's well - the first ewe had a large single, but the 2nd ewe made up for it by having healthy triplets! Now, 5 more ewes to go, and I'll stop being a nervous wreck! Laurie
  17. Anybody know if Bobby will be on the East Coast at all this year? Laurie
  18. Thanks everyone else, too. This is helping me think more about the pups as individuals and get a game plan together. The nice thing is that having more than one pup to train, which means I don't have to feel rushed with either of them. I know they all develop at different speeds, and, so I am just playing it by ear with each of them. Historically, I have always gotten along better with bitches and mares, so that may be one reason I'm not "getting it together" as well with my male pup. I'm also gun shy because I just placed a well bred 2 1/2 year old male as a pet (to my boyfriend) who was pretty much a washout. He started out looking like he had all the right stuff although he was very soft. I babied him along, and didn't pressure him at all, but he wouldn't tolerate any structure. By two he was leaving the field if everything didn't go "his way" (which sometimes involved gripping sheep from anxiety, then running out of the field). Sweetheart of a dog otherwise, and he is loving the couch potato life. I really don't think it as anything I did to make him this way, but you can't help having that nagging feeling. Laurie
  19. Thanks! Thinking about the scenario... By pressuring the sheep, I guess I meant he wasn't relaxing, and the sheep kept ending up on my feet. These particular sheep do like to be on top of me, they look at humans as "the safe place". Most recently, I did go back to using these really dog broke older wethers because the yearlings I had been working at my friend's place were getting "sour". They were almost too dog broke, but occasionally would just get crabby and decide not to respond to pressure from the dog, turn on the dog, or split off and cause my pups to want to chase. Most of the ewes at this farm have lambs right now, and I won't work them with the young dogs. I might get brave and work him in a smaller area on my own wethers (that are really light, but at least not sour). So, I will try not requiring him to stand so long, and keep the flow going. He is a good boy, and wants to be honest. But, you're right, he needs to discover he has control and he won't lose his sheep just because he relaxes and/or listens to me. I haven't asked for anything but on balance stops from him yet, mostly just moving around and keeping him moving around the sheep in wide arcs, changing directions to encourage him to cover. I'll just keep doing that until I see more relaxation. Laurie
  20. Hi- thanks! I guess I think he needs a down because his "stand" is still pressuring the sheep- he's not mentally "in neutral" in his stand. So when I want to start adding flanks and such, I'll need him to have a neutral gear, right? I don't mind the stand, if I could get him to understand that he needs to "lighten up" and release some pressure on the sheep in that position. It's often when I ask him to down that he does his "explosive slice". I've been asking him to stand steady for longer, see if that will let him relax some. I have an older bitch that much prefers stand to down, which is fine (even though I say lie down, she usually just stops low on her feet, and that is OK with me.) I guess I'm not sure either one of these pups are ready to "pour it to 'em", but I don't want to miss (or boggle) that window either. Laurie
  21. In light of Bart's debut video - I have two nice pups. I see a lot of great things in them, but I'm a bit paranoid about pushing them too fast, and burning them out. I've been very conservative with them so far. Looking for hints as to how to proceed ... The male turned a year the end of December and started like Bart, all business. He was sooooo serious, and seemed to have all the right stuff mentally. Scary at 10 weeks old! Very bold and afraid of nothing. Has had nice casts from the beginning, but recently gets a wild hair sometimes and slices in (mostly caused by occasional lambs darting about). I basically started him like Bart, then tried him maybe once a month, until he turned a year old. Mostly just wearing/walk-abouts around a big field, and letting him feel and cover his sheep. Keeping things calm and low-key. He still won't take a lie down, but will stand when I ask for it, and block him. He's seeming more mature, but at the same time, started challenging me a bit on the stopping, and calling off. His lie down is great off of sheep, but he doesn't seem to "get it" with the pressure of the sheep. I "think" it's time to put a little pressure on him for the down and to stop the occasional slicing silliness. What do you think? My goal is to keep his naturalness, but get reliable stops. I'd also like to start adding more structure so I can begin actual outruns instead of just flanking/casting around with the sheep close. I have another one who is 10 months old. Very natural, thoughtful, calm, but softer than the boy - (easier to pressure into moving away - has never really tried to "beat me".) Started nicely at the same age, then not much until the last couple of weeks. Moved from the round pen after a session into a 200x 100 area. Her lie downs are lovely, just by letting her balance and blocking her a bit. I'd like to move her to the bigger field and start the wearing /walk-abouts. I feel like she is going to come along faster than the boy above (she's more receptive to subtle pressure) but I don't want to rush her or pressure her too fast. What would you suggest? Laurie
  22. Very cool pup! My question - now that you see what he is mentally "made of" - Where do you go from here? Do you go on with it, or put him away and just bring him out occasionally to see if it's still the same until he's more physically mature? I have started a couple of pups that showed me this kind of seriousness, and I've been afraid to continue, in case I get to a point where they need more pressure but aren't ready for that mentally. I think I'll start a new thread on this so as not to take away from Bart's awsomeness! Laurie
  23. OK - slightly Off Topic - but this is the funniest You Tube "Training Video" I've seen....and if anyone can translate, I would love to know what this handler is saying. Laurie
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