Dinkle

Good luck David - He's very lucky to have such a great family who are prepared to keep trying and make things right.  It will no doubt take a lot longer to cure the problem than it took for it to start but with patience and understanding I'm sure you'll get there.  And at the end of it you will hopefully have a dog who trusts and respects you and you in turn will have a much stronger understanding and bond with him as a result.

As you're rather a long way from Barbara Sykes...I'd still recommend reading her book 'Understanding and Handling Dog Aggression' - (it's available in e book edition too) even if you are working with another behaviourist - this will give you a great insight.  It's beginning to look like I'm on commission from Barbara!! I'm not! but I do respect what she has achieved and what she continues to do for Border Collies...

keep us posted!

Hi David

I just wanted to offer my take on this and a suggestion (if applicable) - You say the problems started 4 months ago and that your puppy is 7 months old - so the problems started a few weeks after your new puppy joined the household (assuming you got her around 8 weeks old?)  To me it would seem that your boy's problems are rooted in this.  Your boy has been pestered and bothered by the pup and you've allowed her to do this (by the sound of it) to the point where he has lost all faith and trust in you.  He's had to start assuming the leadership role in the house as he didn't see you as doing so.  He even objects to you telling her off now as he sees it as his job! He's at an age, just approaching maturity, when he's very vulnerable to any changes in the pack dynamic.  I had this happen when I lost my old girl who was very much an alpha female.  My young male at 16 months was suddenly floundering - he became reactive to other dogs and people.  It took me a while, I'm embarrassed to admit, to realise that he had picked up on my emotional state and didn't see me as strong enough, so with my old girl gone, he was taking the law into his own paws.  Once I stepped up and proved to him that I was there to protect and lead, he became a different dog.  Very different circumstances I know, but the result is the same - a young dog feeling let down and taking charge.

I'm not going to attempt to try to advise you how to deal with this on your own, I'm no behaviourist!   But I was wondering if (from your spelling) that you're in the UK?  If so, please try to talk to Barbara Sykes at FOSTBC (Freedom of Spirit Trust for Border Collies).  She has worked with many BCs with fear and aggression issues and I think she is the best person to help here.

Best of luck, I hope so much that you manage to work this out

Edited to add that: since my reply this morning, I've had chance to have a look through your previous posts - this has really been bothering me as I hate to see a young dog that people are recommending is best PTS because of fear issues.  It would seem this issue has indeed been building since you introduced Millie, your younger dog.  You've also been advised to try separating them and stopping her pestering him before.  This bullet point from your post in November seems to answer quite a lot - and you yourself wondered at the time....

"What we did notice last night is that Millie was have a bark and snarl at him if he tried to get a toy, or come under the coffee table so he would back off and almost back himself into a corner and stay there. It seemed he was too afraid or too anxious to move as he was afraid of being snarled at again. I’m not sure if the above points are him lashing out because of this?"

YES!!!! if you haven't already done so - stop her - separate them.  Add this to the constant bothering him whilst he's trying to sleep etc and Kobe has been under serious stress.  Your boy has been crying out for you to do something.  A behaviourist feeding him treats once a week isn't EVER going to do anything to help him.  You need to help him get his confidence in you back and you can start by removing the cause of stress from his life.  

I have a young pup and 3 older dogs - the pup is in her crate right now and the others have the run of the house.  She comes out to play with supervision and is never allowed to persist in bothering my others.  It's not their job to defend themselves or teach the pup manners; it's mine to ensure they don't have to

On 2/2/2019 at 3:35 PM, D'Elle said:

Well, Dinkle, the folks on this forum have spent many years working with border collies and advising people who have them. Everyone is here because we love the breed and we want to help other people who may have less information or experience with these dogs than we do. Many of us spend time every day replying to people's questions here because we want to help, and you came here with a question because you needed help. We have done our best to help. If you want to get insulted and over react to the things people say then maybe this is not the right forum for you. If you can stop taking things so personally and choosing to take offense, you will have the opportunity to learn a great deal from people here, some of whom actually are authorities on the breed. I am not an authority myself, but I know oceans more now than I did years ago when I first started posting and reading here, and everyone here has been supportive and helpful to me. Sometimes I didn't like what they had to say. Oh well. I got past my urge to take offense or to be hurt and listened to the meat of the information that was being given to me.  I learned something each time. If you cannot take the information that is being given in the spirit it is given you will miss out on a lot that will help both you and your dog. It's up to you of course. If you'd rather respond imagined offence by slinging insults at the people here then you can't learn anything from us, and we can't learn anything from you and your experience either. I suggest you put down your sword and shield and join us.

Then why did you write that I had come here with a question looking for help?....you got it badly wrong and don't even have the good grace to acknowledge this and apologise.  Incidentally I never once came here looking for help - I only ever offered suggestions or support to other users and in doing so I never belittled or criticised the advice or suggestions of others....

I was the one insulted and yet you accuse me of insulting others.  You are so far wide of the mark and seemingly entirely unwilling to even read the post properly.

I'll leave you to your board now.  I feel utterly disgusted by yours and GentleLakes' behaviour.  You are both rude, arrogant and misinformed in your attitudes. Perhaps before you both criticise others, you could take a look at your own behaviour.  Good evening to you - enjoy the rest of your weekend

8 minutes ago, terrecar said:

@Dinkle I am truly sorry if my post came off as inappropriately critical. I get it. Sometimes it isn't what is being said but how it is being said; and sometimes an uncharitable message board reply IS more about the poster's ego (or insecurities) than it is about any real desire to be helpful (not on this board, necessarily).  However, I assure you that my intention was to be helpful; not demeaning.

I think if you will read my post again, you will see that my warning about these games was specifically geared toward those who might want to take their dog to stock. Speaking as a novice sheepdog handler, one of the most difficult things to learn, particularly if you've come from an obedience background, is that sheepdog handling is not about commands, focus on the handler or control. The dog needs to be able to feel its sheep and even, in some instances, ignore a command to save one's novice ass .  What's worse is that, particularly in some 'herding' venues, there are 'mechanical' trainers who might steer you in the wrong direction. So, I just wanted to put that out there in case it could be useful to someone who will later take sheepdog training lessons with their dog.

Like I said, I have done these games with my own Aussie/Border Collie mix (btw, "walk up" and "lie down" are not the exclusive domain of shepherds). However,  I had already decided that it would be pointless to try her on sheep, even if she did show some interest. So, I by no means meant to disparage your use of the terms. If you're not taking your dog to sheep, it doesn't really matter to anyone who really matters.

Thank you, this is really nice of you and much appreciated.  I'm sorry too if my response to you was a little snippy - it really wasn't you who got my back up and I do think the point you made is fair and correct. 

16 minutes ago, D'Elle said:

Well, Dinkle, the folks on this forum have spent many years working with border collies and advising people who have them. Everyone is here because we love the breed and we want to help other people who may have less information or experience with these dogs than we do. Many of us spend time every day replying to people's questions here because we want to help, and you came here with a question because you needed help. We have done our best to help. If you want to get insulted and over react to the things people say then maybe this is not the right forum for you. If you can stop taking things so personally and choosing to take offense, you will have the opportunity to learn a great deal from people here, some of whom actually are authorities on the breed. I am not an authority myself, but I know oceans more now than I did years ago when I first started posting and reading here, and everyone here has been supportive and helpful to me. Sometimes I didn't like what they had to say. Oh well. I got past my urge to take offense or to be hurt and listened to the meat of the information that was being given to me.  I learned something each time. If you cannot take the information that is being given in the spirit it is given you will miss out on a lot that will help both you and your dog. It's up to you of course. If you'd rather respond imagined offence by slinging insults at the people here then you can't learn anything from us, and we can't learn anything from you and your experience either. I suggest you put down your sword and shield and join us.

Oh dear....perhaps go back and read the thread before jumping on me?...I am not the OP.  I responded to the op with a perfectly nice training game that they may wish to try with their pup and because I DARED to use the word 'herding' in the title of my game I was taken to task...so in fact it was me who was trying to be helpful and someone else who took offense at my terminology that they deemed inappropriate and then insulted me by calling me uninformed and foolish...I'm afraid your response and speed to back up another 'senior member' without verifying your facts only reinforces the reasons why I stayed away from this board for so long.  I am the one wishing that I had never tried to be helpful at this point.

21 minutes ago, GentleLake said:

It's not a matter of being pedantic, @Dinkle, but of trying to debunk the all too common blaming of so many unwanted behaviors in border collies and other related breeds as due to their having been bred for herding. If you've followed these Boards for a while (and I see you have) you'll have repeatedly seen people worried about their pups' nipping at feet and following motion, etc. as herding behavior when it's nothing more than perfectly normal juvenile predatory play behavior seen in all types of dogs. By not understanding and misnaming what it actually is, too many people don't seek out entirely legitimate advice from very qualified trainers, or worse, get bad advice from misguided trainers who'll write it off as "herding behavior" and throw up their hands not knowing how to deal with it.

What you call your game assigning herding terms with your dog is entirely up to you. Heck, you can call your dog a dinosaur if you want to. But it won't make you right and will instead make you look pretty foolish and uninformed.

Well, nearly right...  I signed up to this board some years ago and was put off by  attitudes then by some who clearly spend a lot of time on here and consider themselves authorities, so it has taken me a few years to return.  I see some things never change.  Regarding the remainder of your post - interesting to see your explanation, it's not entirely correct of course, but interesting nonetheless.  Thank you for calling me foolish and uninformed (and whichever way I read that, it's what you intended), I am far from it but you were so busy being pedantic that you missed that.

4 hours ago, terrecar said:

Just a caveat about the away/come-by/walk up et al.  If you think you might ever want to take your dog to stock, where you would use these words to communicate with your dog, these games are not a good idea. I do sometimes engage my Aussie/Border Collie mix in the types of games you describe, but that is only because I decided I would not be taking her to sheep. I don't engage in these types of games at all with my Border Collie (a trained sheepdog). She has no natural inclination toward ball play, other than to occasionally pick up the ball, run around with it a few times and drop it (which is hilarious). The commands you mentioned should be taught on--and in relation to--stock, if that's in your plan.

thank you - but my collie enjoys the game immensely and hasn't once complained about the commands I use...and there is no intention or requirement for her ever to work stock.  I'm bright enough to have figured out for myself that might have been confusing ;-) 

Wow! talk about pedantic!  I can call it herding the ball if I choose to do so and there is no harm in that whatsoever and I'm pretty damn sure that it hasn't ever confused anyone...well not anyone with a modicum of intelligence anyway.   And no, I have no intention of my dogs ever working livestock - it's just a game which pet collies love .  Some people...!

8 hours ago, KevTheDog said:

@Dinkle Awesome! I'm wondering about how to teach these commands with a tennis ball - any tips or resources?

start at close quarters and lure the dog round the ball in the direction you want - repeat and add in the command, treat and praise.  Then move a little further back and lure towards and round in the direction you want again (ie anticlockwise) for 'away'.  bring the dog to the '12 o'clock' position to the ball each time before your treat/praise.  From there after enough repetition you can start sending them out from a few feet from the ball with an arm movement similar to your lure with a treat alongside the command.  As BCs they seem to get it really fast as its so hard wired into them!  you can then increase the distance.  Repeat for 'Come By' going clockwise towards the ball and moving to the 12 o'clock position. 

For 'walk up', you'll first need the pup to have a decent 'lie down' or 'stay' then you put them in a down/stay position and back away.  Ask them or lure them towards you but almost immediately ask for another 'lie down' or 'stay' - after a while when they are moving slowly towards you, anticipating another 'stay' or 'lie down' you can start to add in the command for moving forwards eg 'walk up' and putting the ball in between the 2 of you.  They then start to target the ball in the walk up if you always get them to stop/lie down on reaching the ball -  again, easy for BCs, it's in their DNA :-) to crouch and stalk up.

After a few sessions my girl was doing it with me about 10ft from the ball - she'd run out to it then lie down at the 12 o'clock .  Amazing how many times she'll do this and how much entertainment she gets from a stationary ball!! To get more exercise just increase the distance to the ball

You can place the ball, roll it or throw it depending on how much stimulation that particular dog needs to focus on it.

it's great fun - give it a try and I hope you enjoy it!

29 minutes ago, D'Elle said:

I don't think the submissive act with your boyfriend is a good thing at all. It tells me that he was way too hard on the pup. Personally, the last thing I would want from my dog is to run to me with ears pulled back and sit in front of me in a submissive posture. This isn't love, it's fear, and it's not the kind of relationship I would want with my dog. 

It sounds to me as if you may not have had quite a firm enough approach with Tama. Now, that doesn't mean raising your voice or being hard on him the way your boyfriend was. It means having within you the attitude that you are the boss with the final say. Just that in itself makes a difference. I once trained a border collie with someone who had never been able to get her to behave on a leash even once, despite having tried the usual and mostly effective things, including my personal technique.  I took her out without her owner and used the technique I recommend for not pulling on the leash and the dog walked nicely right away. Her owner came out and was utterly amazed. further work with this person showed me that she was a generally submissive person and while she had done the right things technically she had always done them in a tentative way. You can be firm without being harsh or loud or punitive in your manner.  You can be firm and impersonal or cheerful and friendly at the same time. This is how I work.

Other than that bit of advice, I would only say that you are probably worrying too much. It sounds as though your pup loves you and if you can avoid feeling anxious about this it may help the situation on more than one level.

couldn't agree more - great advice

How exciting!  Look forward to seeing more pics as he grows up - he looks a cheeky little fella!

Ah I have one like that...she will happily eat any 'real' meat whether it's cooked or raw but any proprietary dog food kibble, canned or treats did nothing for her.  Never did since she was 8 weeks old and she's now 3 and hasn't changed.  As I don't have the storage space to feed raw to my dogs, they do get kibble and tinned meat - so the only way I have found to get her to show any interest in it is either with dog gravy or canned pumpkin (this is her favourite).  She has always driven me to distraction with her stubbornness regarding food - my others wolf theirs down and she just stands and stares at hers!  But I wouldn't worry too much - my Midge always maintained a good weight and had a super shiny coat, so clearly she was/is getting enough of what she needs even though it never did seem enough to me.  So I would judge yours by condition.  If he is a good weight, active and otherwise healthy, I wouldn't stress too much about the food ( but do try the pumpkin!) 

I'd definitely second the recommendation for mental rather than physical exercise.  When my 3 yr old BC was a pup, physical exercise left her really hyped, unable to settle and much more likely to nip me and bother my other dogs even when she was physically exhausted.  So I taught her to herd a tennis ball.  She had great working instincts and loved it!  I taught her 'come by', 'away to me', 'walk up', lie down, 'that'll do' and various others that harnessed her natural instincts.  The most I would ever do with the ball was gently roll it away from us 10-15 ft with her by my side, then I would send her out to it with an 'away' then have her lie down then call her back with a 'that'll do'...then back out to the ball in the other direction with a 'come by'. I'd have her stalk up to it with 'walk up' and get her to lie down occasionally as she did so.  Her ultimate reward was once or twice I would tell her to 'go get it' and she was allowed to pick the ball up.  It was very little real physical exercise but she was using her brain constantly and hanging on my every word and it left her tired and relaxed.  I kept my voice barely above a whisper so that she really had to focus on me and I kept it really calm - we could then go home and she would put herself to bed. Just 5 or 10 minutes is plenty.  Much better than playing 'fetch' with a tennis ball (which I hate as it is so hard on dogs joints)

What one person chooses to allow their dog to do and another doesn't is personal preference: so perhaps you could find a level of expectation that you are both happy with rather than it all being the way your boyfriend wants it.  However to me, the relationship between dog and human should be based on trust and respect - I would neither trust nor respect someone who took my food away whilst I was eating and wouldn't expect any dog of mine to either!

Honestly, his approach sounds rather strict to me and entirely based on dominating the pup.  I'd go back to your way....it sounds much better.  

Hello - I'm not too far from yourselves - over in the North Pennines.  I've got a 7 yr old and 3 yr old BC and just brought home a 9 week old.  Would recommend having a look for a book by Barbara Sykes 'Understanding and Training Puppies'.  She's amazing and helped me so much with my 7 yr old who had real issues at one point.  She's not influenced by fashions or fads in dog training, she doesn't advocate lots of toys or treats, but her methods are gentle and calm and she is a BC specialist - can't recommend her highly enough!  I think her book addresses all of your concerns, regarding chewing and also socialisation.  It's just good common sense backed with a huge amount of experience!  Best of luck with your pup - sounds like she has found herself a wonderful home!

Time...my Midge was a terrible 'nipper' at that age and nothing stopped her.  She would turn round and nip if you stroked her, picked her up or just walked past!  But by around 14 weeks that disappeared and to use her teeth on anyone now (at 3 years old) would be unthinkable to her.  It was nothing we did in particular and I certainly never punished her - just quietly put her back in a play pen - she just outgrew it, just as she wasn't an affectionate pup, but is now a very affectionate dog.  So just give your pup time.  

love it! clever girl

Just wanted to introduce my newest pack member 'Midge' - Midge is just over 8 weeks old now and is a little smooth coat girl. She comes from a working and trialling strain and will be doing agility with me (hopefully...we'll see!)

Boy she makes my last pup Humphrey look like a very calm little boy when he was the same age! Midge is a real Tasmanian Devil...she has 2 main modes: Asleep and Attack. I can see I'm going to have my work cut out keeping this little lady occupied...so far she has learned 'sit' and 'lie down' and now we're moving on to lead walking. 2 weeks yet before she can venture out in public (not carried) but she's already out and about with me and my other dogs in her puppy bag!

just got to results back on our other dog too - a lurcher. I'm no less impressed with his than Humphrey's. He came back 5/8 greyhound, 1/8 whippet. 1/8 Staffie and 1/8 Wheaten Terrier. Whilst we thought he may have some Pharaoh Hound in him due to his almond eyes and pointed ears, it seems not. Also when I look at Bull Lurchers (Sighthound x Staffie) the almond eyes often occur there too. So all in all I wouldn't doubt either of my results.

Oh and re the photos - no we weren't asked to submit one beforehand either. You do have the option to add one once the results are back so that it can be displayed on the certificate though

Humphrey is a beautiful pup, I can see the foxhound worked in!

Thank you! :-)

I have heard some wacked out stuff from wisdom panel but did some digging and found an article by McConnell ((I think)) explaining what made the weird results happen sometimes, that sounded very reasonable. Basically things like breed TYPES and ancient breeds and more recent breeds being made up of other breeds and how they decide what the breed is to start with (and it's not like it's just 'BOOM, BC').

 

I have the test out for my middle dog right now (middle of my signature). I'm looking forward to what comes back! I won't necessarily put 100% stock in it, but I'm pretty curious.

so what's your guess?

an up to date pic of my little BC Foxhound or 'Follie' as we call him...Humphrey

Nice to hear that at least some of the DNA tests come back reasonable.

possibly because there's only 2 breeds in his heritage, it was easier to define

What DNA test did you use? We've been considering doing one on one of our dogs. Welcome by the way and what a cute nose on him. I'd kiss it.

Thanks :-) it was Wisdom Panel - and got to say I'm pretty impressed. I've also sent away to have another of my pack tested and the results won't be quite as straightforward...so will be interesting to see what comes back. Our other boy is a sighthound cross - we suspect Pharaoh Hound cross...so let's see what they pick up! With Humphrey - his behaviour and appearance gave him away from the start!

thanks :-) the breed profile isn't a scientific fact it's a likelihood given that his mum was clearly a BC/Foxhound cross and that Humphrey and his littermates were more BC in appearance than their mum - chances are extremely high that his sire was a working BC from a local farm as we are in farming country here. making the approx mix of 3 parts BC to one part Foxhound...although of course there is a chance there was a little of something else in mum...

 

humph.jpg

 

2014-03-09 11.53.03 (1024x712).jpg

Just to update...we've just got Humphrey's DNA results back...as expected he has come back at 3/4 Border Collie and 1/4 Foxhound. What we always suspected given his appearance and behaviour but lovely to have it confirmed.