ItsADogsLyfe

When my dog, Seth was much younger I left him lying in front of my coffee table nose level and about 5 inches away from my chicken dinner. I wasn't thinking and got up to go get something. I remembered and peeked around the corner to see him nose to plate just looking at the chicken which he could have easily licked or grabbed. He did neither. He just stared for a bit then got up and came into the kitchen with me. It seemed to me that the temptation was too great so he left and being the "ethical" dog that he is he didn't want to eat something he knew was not his. I hate putting human conotations on doggie behavior, but out of all 5 of my Border Collies Seth does seem to have more of something that keeps him on the straight and narrow. My Poodle would have snatched that chicken and choked it down fast before he got caught and would never have cared one bit at doing something wrong.

I'd like to know how anyone could watch the USBCHA finals on the webcast the other day and possibly compare it to an AKC trial. By this I mean the work being done in the USBCHA trial is worlds away from anything done in AKC. I've had Border Collies for over 10 years now and never bred even one litter of puppies. I'd love to have a pup from my Seth as I love him so much. He is a great working dog and has really proven himself to me in so many different areas. If it is real work (he likes to play games with me at trials) and he can see the purpose he will give it his all. I've had a few really top handlers tell me what a nice dog he is. Would I ever breed him? No most definitely not. For one thing I know his faults and as much as I love him and as good a working dog as he is, I honestly don't think he'd contribute much to the betterment of the breed. Out of my five very well bred Border Collies, who have all worked to some degree, I"d not breed any of them. I will leave the breeding up to the most knowledgable folks. The ones that know the breed through and through and have a knowledge of the dogs that goes back decades.

Hmm...this sounds vaguely familiar to me.

so I wonder if he was born white like ACDs are then the ticking comes in later?

I saw him run in Sturgis in 03. He sure looked ticked to me. He was very striking looking. I think there is another thread with info on Tweed but I can't remember how long ago it was.

That is exactly what I was attempting to point out. Attempting is also a good word here as I defintely don't have the ability to make my meaning clear as well as you do Julie. But as with so many of these threads the original question gets lost in the numerous directions the conversation takes. I think that is a good thing though because I can learn so much from all these detours.

maybe try keeping the garden door open and you going out and playing with Sam. Give Sam lots of praise and let her watch from inside. I'd do this lots until she is tempted enough to step a foot out the door. Just remember everything will be baby steps for her. Don't rush her, just give her lots of time to see that life outside isn't so bad, in fact it can be very good.

But you are equating them when you say the following. You are clearly stating that you feel because you aren't an outdoorswoman that to you freestyle is more a partnership than stock work would be. It has nothing to do with what type a person you are, it has to do with the job. Subsitence doesn't depend on freestyle or agility. It's not my "idea" of what a partnership should be, or anyone elses idea, it is if the job gets done with the minimal of stress on the stock and no injuries to any parties involved. Sometimes things are as they are and we can't reword things to change the meaning. Work is work and freestyle and agility and flyball etc are games or sports. I think its great that people do these things with their dogs. I'd rather see dogs enjoying themselves doing these activities than be tied to a chain a backyard, but they are different than working for a living. Doing sheepwork with a dog is more like working with another human getting the job at hand done. As for the mechanical point. I would ask you this. Even if you don't want to see it that way, you have to admit that the training involved in freestyle and agilty is pretty much exacting. Sheepwork not so much exacting. To me this is mechanical and not very natural. If you are enjoying what you do with your dogs ie: freestyle, agility etc, and the training to do this requires the dog be precise in its movements when you tell it what to do, then what is so bad about being mechanical in freestyle or agility? Its not a bad thing if that is what you need.

I don't think you are understanding my point. Musical Freestyle and agility may be a partnership, I don't know I've never tried either, but those are not necessities in life. You do them because you enjoy them, they are fun for you. You seem to be equating those acitivities with sheep work. I'm not a big sheep producer so I'm not now working dogs on stock that is in any way my livelyhood, but I did used to raise dairy goats and chickens in which to feed my family. I needed a good dog then to help make my job a bit easier. It was not always "pleasant" work, but the dogs do minimize the amount of work I have to do. I'm am an artist of sorts also but that has nothing to do with the basics of life which requires food on the table. Freestyle while a nice enjoyable activitiy to do with your dog, will not put food in your childrens mouths. I'm not trying to minimize the acitivities you do with your dog, I have done numerous activities with my dogs, but in regards to this conversation, I still feel the the training involved in creating a good freestyle or agility dog does make the dog more "mechanical (for want of a better word)" than the training involved in making a good sheepdog.

I'm the one that made the mechanical comment. I think the way both Julie's put it is how I see it. I have trialed in obedience many years ago but for the past 10 years I've only worked with sheepdogs. The difference is that obedience and other activities such as agility and tricks are just commands the dog follows. In sheep work the dog has to think for themselves. I can tell my dog what to do but he is going to be influenced by the way the sheep move and will have to make adjustments on his own as to how to get done what I've asked him to do. Agility equipment isn't going to move on him and try to run away. Asking for him to do a trick is simply a command that he has to follow exact. To me sheep work is much more of a partnership in getting a job done. I NEED those sheep moved to a particular place for grazing. If I'm asking my dog to work with me to move those sheep and those sheep take off out of my sight, my dog is going to have to be the thinker here, not me as I can't see the sheep. I have to rely on him to think for himself as to the best way to get the sheep back. The commands in sheep work are not absolutes.

I wasn't really referring to dogs doing agility when I was talking about mechanical looking. And maybe mechanical isn't really the right word. Its really kind of undefinable to me. But the dogs I've watched being clicker trained have a different demeanor than my dogs when I am working them.

I didn't mean the use of one was mechanical, I meant the dogs that I have seen trained using that method seem more mechanical and less natural to me. I find this funny because even though I've raised 3 children and numerous dogs, I always seem to use a dog analogy when talking to my son about raising his two boys. I can relate everything in life to dogs. Really I find no matter what method is used the most important thing is consistency.

My opinion on the c/t thing for toddlers. In raising my 3 kids (now all of adult age, last one just turned 18) I was never in the structured, only breast feed on a time schedule, potty train them young etc. I nursed my babies when they were hungry, probably sometimes when they were not. I never tried to potty "train" them. I showed them the toilet and showed them what it was for and when they were around 2 yrs or so they started using it reliably enough on their own to not require diapers. I liked diapers..so easy when you went somewhere. I never had to frantically find a bathroom to make sure my kid didn't soil their underpants. Every parent I knew who tried to train their child ended up either having their child using the bathroom reliably around the same age as mine, or sometimes even later, I think because of too much pressure put on the kid. I always figured as long as they knew how to use the toilet by the time they went to school they'd be ok. They've all grown up to be very successful accomplished people. C/t trained dogs seem more mechanical to me. I like to work with my dogs the same as I did with my kids. I tell them, show them then let them know when they are right. Communicating without the technical aspect of a devise that makes a noise to mark the "behavior." All the technical terminology makes my head spin. I can't keep it all straight in my head so I have to go with what comes naturally to me when working with my dogs. If it feels right and I get the right reactions, I go with whatever works at that time. I'm sure the c/t has its place with certain people, but its just not for me with how I want my dogs to respond.

I'd like to meet some cyber friends and talking dogs at the finals. I'll bet those dogs have some real interesting things to say.

Jodi, you're never going to win with this type of person. They won't listen, they know more than you, you don't know anything etc. I do feel sorry for the poor chumps who don't know any better and will actually think they are getting these great "prestigious" Border Collies. PT Barnum was right, there is a sucker born every minute.

In looking for further info on this I found this article dated July 2008. In this article it states she suffered a broken ankle and had 68 stitches. I would really think two LGDs both attacking her would do far more damage than this if they'd thought she was a threat. Its a sad incident no matter how you look at it, but I really feel for the rancher in this case. http://www.vaildaily.com/article/20080711/...entProfile=1062

Seth used to do some really cool somersaults on his outrun if there was a ditch he wasn't paying attention to. I should have thought to put a word to it and maybe he would have done that trick on command? Actually once I was just in the process of blowing a redirect to get him to go out a bit more and he tripped in a ditch and went head over heels. Best timing on a correction I ever got..he bent right out after that!

Great pictures Denise! As always. Mine pale so much in comparison, but at least viewing yours I have some names to put to the ones I took.

I haven't noticed any difference in my dog's behavior since switching to the Orijen. Mike is reactive, but definitely not aggressive at all. He gets along with all other dogs and people. I've really only seen positive results from this dog food. I did go from a food with grain (Canidae lamb and rice) to the Orijen with no grain. I think the lack of grain is what is giving me the positive changes. Coat is better, stool is definitely far better. My 6 yr old that is a smooth coat and always had a rather brittle coat and I could never keep weight on him actually gained 3 lbs even though I feed almost half of the amount of Orijen to the Canidae L&R. His coat is not brittle anymore either. Anyway, sorry this is getting away from the OP question.

My Mike dog got pancreatitis from stealing the cat's food. It happened just one time when he accidently got out of his crate while we were gone and he got up on the table where the cat dish was. He was very sick. He stayed at the vet hosp for 3 days before they called and said please come get Mike, he's all better. Mike is my "special needs" dog and is very active and reactive (non thinking). He loves people, but I guess they'd had enough of him. Anyway, the vet told me dogs should not eat cat food. I'm thinking it was the fat content as it was the fat that my vet said can cause the pancreatitis? My other dogs have occasionally gotten into the cat food with no ill effects, but I'm very careful now about them eating it. About the protein count I've been feeding Orijen which is 40% protein. I love the food, my dogs love it and do well on it, but is it maybe too much protein? I've read more about this in another thread I think but I'm not sure anything was definitively said about the higher protein being bad? I have 4 so called "senior" dogs and 1 almost (6 yrs) and 1 puppy. They all eat the same thing and everyone seems happy and healthy.

I was fortunate to be able to go spectate at this trial. It was an awsome setting for a trial. I got to meet quite a number of people that I only knew by name before. It is a beautiful farm and everyone was extremely nice and welcoming! I took pictures with my not so great camera and I posted some on my blog which if anyone is interested can be viewed using the link below my name. Maybe someone can put a name to the dogs in my pictures? I didn't get to see Sue again as she was working the whole time I was there on Sunday and I wanted to meet Julie but I only got to see her from afar up on the hill. I did get to talk with Laura Carson and she was really nice and put up with my nosey Crue boy who kept trying to take off the wrap on her injured ankle. I had a great time, I wish I could have stayed longer!

Wow...Jett is already 2? Seems just yesterday you were posting pics of her as a small puppy! I love the pic of the Wubba in front of her. Happy Birthday Jett. I always forget my dog's birthdays till after. Although once at the drs office twice (in the same day) and later at the pharmacy I gave the date of my daughter's BD as Feb 8th. It wasn't till at the pharmacy she said "you know Mom, that's not my BD" I felt so bad! Feb 8th is Seth's BD. Bad Mom.

Yay for Celt! I'm so glad he's feeling better!

In my case I didn't choose a Border Collie. In fact I tried very hard to not get one. My friend bred a litter and I had been hearing the pups over the phone since they were born. She and her husband decided to come down to my house and enter the remaining pups in a little match show we had at the park, hoping to find them homes. They were now 12 weeks old. When they arrived at my house after a 3 hour drive we took the puppies out of their crate and put them in my yard. As I was taking them out and handing them to my kids this one little white faced pup looked up at me and gave me this look. I thought oh no..I can't have another dog!! I said nothing to my friend and we continued on to the park a little later. When we got there she asked if we'd all help her with the pups..I took the little white faced one and walked off with him. I went up to my friend then and said I need this dog. Her jaw about dropped because she'd been talking to me about these pups for such a long time and I kept saying no I don't need another dog. Of course she gave him to me and that's how I got my first Border Collie. His name was already Seth when I got him. City of Angels was my and my friend's favorite movie at that time and he was named after Nicolas Cage's character. I had actually considered making his registered name Seth Plate, but decided a good stockdog would be embarassed by that. I had raised goats for years and when I took Seth in to see them at 12 weeks he immediately started moving them around and controlling them. I have it on video, this little puppy facing off with those goats. They never got his goat! LOL I realized I needed to find out how to use all this instinct so I found a place to go train him and the rest as they say is history. I now have 5 Border Collies and my life has never been the same! I do remember one time when I was about 8 or 9 yrs old, my little sister and I were outside playing and some people walked down the road walking a border collie. Even way back then I knew what kind of dog it was. Dogs were my obsession. My sister said she'd like a dog like that and I told her no, those are working dogs and they need to work.

Of my own personal dogs. My observations, my opinion based on my ability to read my dog's feelings. So take it for what it's worth. Seth is most definitely much happier when working stock. As a young dog (before working) I used to think he just acted unhappy. After he started working stock he looked and acted much happier. Now he's not working he never seems all that happy anymore. I made the mistake yesterday of saying a working term in relation to play and he looked around for sheep then looked at me, not happy. Meg was so obsessed with working sheep that after I sold my sheep she acted very lost for a long time. Not that she was that great a stockdog, but something in her pushed her to only think about working the sheep when she was outside. The other dogs would be playing here or there at something, even Seth who I worked the most. But Meg was always out watching the sheep. My two younger (not young) dogs are just as happy playing frisbee or running with each other. All have been worked extensively although some more than others. Of my dogs, Seth is different. Not just because he was my first Border Collie. Actually as a working dog he has given me way more grief than the others ever have. Seth has heart though. My other dogs, while they work sheep and do it well, just don't have that extra something that Seth has. Kajarrel said Having been in various dog activities for many years, I never felt truly a working partership with a dog until I did stockwork. Things do fall into place.