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bc soul sista

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Posts posted by bc soul sista

  1. I'm afraid of using to many visual aids at this point, since he will know the difference if they aren't there...but calling him over the jump in a strait recall might get it back in his head what he's supposed to do...


    He's always been solid on the broad jump so it was a big mistake of mine, but i never really proofed it, just took it for granted that he always was so solid :s Well...seeing the fruits of my mistake now.


    If I place him on the left/far side of the jump...he cuts the jump so bad he would NQ...so I set him up on the right/inside edge hoping my pressure would push him out and over the jump a bit...but then he just wouldn't go over it at all....sigh.


    Showing at Land of Lakes trial in MN...

  2. Alright...need some tips, panicking...


    Have my boy entered in all 3 days of an obedience trial this weekend, going for our Open title, need one more leg..


    Went to a fun match Sunday and his broad jump "broke"...he went around it like he didn't know what the H@#$ it was!!! ...this equals problem..


    My solution is to bandaid the problem for now, since we have a show in 4 days I don't feel there is much that I can do(don't want to re-train the exercise or put to much pressure on him right before he has to show) except make the exercise a TON of fun, throw food/toy once he is commited to the jump, and pray he does it at the show...


    Any advice is welcome..

  3. Most people I know who choose another sport to do with there herding dog...chosse agility, because if they HAD to pick a sport agility is probably the most similar...as in it's more of an "action" sport....maybe people who cross train in agility and herding can speak up as I do not train for agility....but I think you use a little of the "pressure and release" you use in stockwork...and in agility even though you want the dog to pay attention to you to some degree...you also want them to be focused on the task at hand..


    From what I've seen it's LESS likely for trainers/handlers..to cross train in other other sprots and herding...I train in competitive obedience and stockwork which I almost never see...because the training required in obedience kind of goes against what you are working for with stockwork other than the dogs willingness to work for you, obey commands...In obedience training I am wanting the dog to pay attention to me at all times, focused attention..coming UP INTO my pressure and being comfortable working there...especially for heeling which is a large portion of competitive obedience....AND consequently, I have struggled some with the dog that I compete with in obedience who also does herding in this way. Of course that could be a coincidence, and I'm sure varies from dog to dog. But because one of the sports I choose to train him in requires SUCH an intense focus on me he tends to come off his sheep alot and look to me to much while working stock. This was my first dog and did a TON of foundation obedience and attention work with him when he was a baby and growing up..before I started him on stock. so this might be the reason for it...also, being a brand new stockdog trainer/handler...we did alot of fetching/gathering and didn't work on exercises that would require a little more independence on his part, or driving the sheep away from me in where he needs to focus more on his sheepies....so this could be the reason also..


    He absolutley knows the difference between the two...just like when we are on a hike he knows the difference between a formal recall and a non-formal recall..when we get to the training facility for obedience he is all hyped up, jazzed and energized to work..and at the barn..he is quite and focused as he gets out of the car, already in a crouch as we walk to the field..BUT like I said, the struggles we have in herding I think are directly related to the other sport we train in...at least somewhat...


    If I were to get another pup to cross train in both those sports...I would ease up on some of the foundation work...at least the focused attention..would work on everything else..

  4. OK..I know very limited about showing in conformation..but I know that the border collie standard is very vague compared to other breed standards. I think the silly AKC people attempted to try and take into account the unique-ness of the breed as a working dog, left ALOT of le-way in the standard. That's why BACK IN THE DAY according to "here say" from others..dogs from working bred lines with ABCA pedigrees only were able to show, win AND get there breed CH...as we all know sacrificing there ABCA registration once that was put into effect)..


    I also notice that breeds that have more complicated standards seem to be able to win BIG CONFORMATION shows..Best in shows...etc...the more descriptive the standard the more often "perfection" or whatever according to there standard seems to be rewarded with winning Best Of Shows, Best of Groups, etc..border collies being shown in conformation seem to hardly EVER win Best in Show, I'm assuming because of there more vague standard.


    SO..I'm ASSUMING the large quantity of "Breed people" over taking the BCSA want to re-write the standard to be more in detail, focusing obsessively even MORE on ther ear carriage, shape of the head, barf and barf....to encourage the popularity and competitiveness of the border collie as a dog in conformation shows..


    This is all just my take on it....

  5. I think it's kinda normal for some females to "run the show" or be caregivers...control freaks...go figure ;)


    My first dog who was a rescue collie was a "caregiver" to my kids...would sleep in there room every night and come "alert me" to anybody stirring..when the kids were sick she would come get me up, etc..she would lay next to them when they were playing..a constanr watchful eye..she had to know what was going on in the house at all times..


    I lived with my X for 3 years and he had a little female border collie, she was definetly a "care giver" borderline control freak..we had her and 2 males and she ran the show in "her house"..she would actually TATTLE on the others if they were doing something they shouldn't! LOL!! If the young guy was chewing on something in the middle of the night or had an accident she would come wake us!! If the boys were rough housing to much, she broke it up..she was a goofy girl ;) Even now when she comes for a visit she walks in like she owns the place...the boys are usually only to happy to give her the control! I think they kinda like it, being bossed around by a sassy lade :P



    I kinda found both girls to be very "emotional" or inquisative?? They always new what was going on and were VERY much "caregivers" and aided in running the household. My boys have all been pretty layed back temperament wise and seem happy to just do as they are told...kinda doofy guys ;)

  6. Correction...I didn't mean that ALL people look for a border collie in the BCSA breeder referal section...but if you're a newer dog person, and you go to the AKC website to look for a breeder, they refer you to the BCSA and on the BCSA sends you to there breeder referal list..


    So a large amount of "pet people" or newer people looking to get pups will be visiting this list..

  7. Hi Ya'll...came to my attention that BCSA(Border collie society of America) aka "parent club" for the AKC, is currently in the work to change the "standard" for breed showing that has been standing since the breed got inducted I believe?? Please correct me if I'm wrong...


    Also correct me if I'm wrong, but I know of at least 2 working bred border collie people who were at least somewhat influencial in writing the original standard..TRYING to write it to reflect conformation that would be suitable to a working dog and if anybody has read the original standard..it's pretty vague compared to most breed standards, alot is open to interpretation than usual in my opinion.


    ANYWAY, not that I care about any of the BREED stuff, but find it interesting to see the direction the BCSA is taking..


    Long time USBCHA open trainers/handlers have trickled down with there involvement in "TRYING" to make a difference with decisions within the club...all but maybe 1 or 2 remain..and I know another long standing USBCHA open handler who will be leaving the club finally after many years....


    More and more "Breed people" or sport people have taken over the club....and there decisions are reflecting that...arguing over things like the "stockdog of destinction" award and the fact that the dog should not have to trial in USBCHA/ISDS trials in order to get the award, etc..


    The "breeder referal" section of there website(where ALL people looking for a border collie breeder) is slowly been flooded of primarily Conformation/sport breeders(with an occasional HSAs or d)...



    SO..I am not a "breed" person and do not support it AT ALL for breeding/ or anything...I do compete in dog sports but do not believe in breeding for sports...my main focus is stockwork and even though I am still a relative novice I am currently trialing at the USBCHA pro-novice level and get out to sheep 2-4 times a week...


    I personaly think this gradual shift in the BCSA to conformation "sporter" collies is not a bad thing...even more seperate from our working border collies..the breed will split even more exteremly over time..


    However, I do worry about trying to reach people new to the breed, and what the general public will see as a "border collie" due to the gradual exctinction of the true working border collie in the largest and most popular breed registry in the nation..



  8. And yes in Jan's defense I've seen quite a few Hob Nob dogs that seem to be quite nice...could get around a pro-novice course even open..they are usually quite relaxed, a bit looser eyed than I would prefer but there doesn't seem to be much tension and they are very biddable...


    I certainly wouldn't go to her looking for my next stockdog prospect but for pumping out so many star performance dogs it's nice to see them still seem to have quite a bit of natural ability...

  9. Just because a dog has an ABCA pedigree doesn't mean any of those dogs were talented stockdogs, without knowing much about the dogs they may have been joe shmoes backyard farm dog. So without knowing more about the pedigree other than it's ABCA, we really wouldn't even know if the dogs on the papers those few generations back were being selected for there ability to work livestock...(talking about Screams pedigree not Scheme's)


    I just see alot of agility breeders seemingly trying to do the right thing by breeding from "working lines"...but other than being from a working registry we really have know idea the quality of the actual dogs on the pedigree or if they are truly working stockdogs...

  10. OOOKKKK I'll get some pedigrees out there for ya'll however depressing it might be....most people thoughts on the fact that Agility super stars breed agility super stars do in fact seem to be correct but I don't know why anyone would expect any different. If I was a top agility competitor with no interest in stockwork..being immersed in there own little "agility culture"..


    People who are looking for the next agility star like someone looking for there next winning open sheepdog are looking for results in the prospective parents in the sport they are looking to compete. OR dogs who are producing winning dogs...most people involved in the "kennel culture" aka dog sports are either ignorant to the "border wars" or don't care..


    Anyway..here are the pedigrees from last years WORLD agility team...(fyi there are LOADS of other agility title abbreviations behind all the dogs and parents names but sheesh just putting the major ones up)


    Ann Braue with SCREAM aka MACH4 ADCH Bluefire Causin Commotion - parents: MACH4 ADCH Mayhem x MACH ROM Credit


    Channon Fosty ICON aka MACH Hob Nob Cult Classic - parents: HC/CH ROMX Scheme x CH/HC Harley ( I believe this is the hob nob bred dog who competed and won a USBCHA open class, as well as many pro novice classes/AHBA/etc.)


    Daisy Peel and SOLAR aka National Agility Champion MACH Super Sun- parents: CH NAC(National Agility CH) MACH9 ADCH Super Star x Rival Natural Wonder OAJ RN


    Terry Smorch and PRESTO aka MACH3 Hob Nob Tempo Night Flight - parents:MACH15 CH ADCH NATCH Topsheld Pizzazz UD HSAs x MACH4 ADCH FDCH Hob Nob Ketch the Wave (surf)(also 2005 owrld team member-sire is Scheme the sire to Icon above)



    So..ya...all sport breeders. when looking at the actual pedigrees there appears to be working lineage only a generation or two back. It seems to be agility breeders use or even like to flaunt the fact that they have "working lines" even though they are obvioulsy not breeding there dogs because of there ability to work stock...


    BUT I have to say...It is interesting just for arguement sake. Scheme, who is the sire of Icon and grandfather to Presto, some argue he is one of the best agility/performance sires to date. He has produced multiple agility super stars and double/triple performance champions..he is DIRECTLY from Red Oliver from actual stockdogs. Scheme is also the full blooded brother to Mary Sullivans(Kensmuir stickdogs) Beth who I know was a very fine stockdog.


    Jan Demellos kennel flaunts the fact that her dogs are from "working lines" and although in the past bunch of years her purpose is obvious to breed agility or performance dogs and her breeding dogs is not being selected for the ability to work livestock...her original, the foundation stock was selected right off the farm....(ps i'm not condoning Jan's breeding practices AT ALL as she obviously is a sport kennel just using the example to show that the best performance dogs can easily COME FROM STRAIT working stockdogs)

  11. I would have to disagree with RB that agility is somehow instinctual....most people I know who train for agility start foundation training with there pups immedietly, to teach them the skills that will help them be successful agility partners....or people who get rescue it takes them TIME to TRAIN the skills necessary to play the GAME...most people want to set themselves up for success and although I could take my neighbors dog in the ring and get him to have fun jumping over a few obstacles or running through tunnels he surely would be able to Q in any kind of trial for quite sometime without alot of training...


    On the other hand...you can take a young border collie who is seeing sheep for the first time and might have a good chance at seeing the lovely sight of a border collie gathering/working sheep(maybe a little to enthusiasticly for there first time) with little input from the trainer....BIG DIFFERENCE...


    I also have a friend who is quite succesful in agility and her best dog was actually NOT a natural jumper..agile maybe but many dogs are....she said for the first couple weeks of training the dog would run UNDER the jumps!! But through training and understanding the game...she is now quite succesful and is getting better and better!!!

  12. I would have to agree with Pam's original post, in the sense that top results in dog sports come more from the trainers talent level more often than the dog..


    Coming from someone who competes in both USBCHA herding trails and dog sports, the great ability of great trainers can fill the gaps and train around certain "holes" or obstacles in the dogs and still attain GREAT success at more advanced levels..hence why some of the most AWESOME trainers I know are not the ones putting OTCH's or MACH's on border collies but on non-traditional performance breeds!!


    BUT..in stockwork they either "have it or they don't"...of course GREAT trainer/handlers can fill some of these gaps to still make them relativley successful, but they still need a reasonable amount of "natural ability" to get them that far....


    I also have observed during my time competing that ALOT of people(mostly novice) choose the border collie breed for sports for the same reason I see alot of people (mostly Novice) people choose them for stockwork...because of there "forgiveness"..which might go with biddability...I've seen time and time again a novice person able to get a Rally title or Novice agility with a border collie who would NEVER be able to do it with another breed. The border collies desire to work and there ability to take pressure to me is unique. There ability to pick up and just keep working despite the poor training or mistakes there trainer/handler is making....I still feel it everytime I step on on a trial field!!!


    Even the top trainers in sports seem to prefer there "no quit" attitude...that they can make mistakes and the bc will still come right back at them wanting to work. They can take a HUGE amount of pressure, and still want to work for there handler, there loyalty limitless at a chance to work...(and I can give some pretty bad accounts of abuse I've witnessed during training for sports and stockwork with border collies and there heart just forgives and KEEPS ON WORKING)



    I believe this trait, this heart and drive to work comes DIRECTLY from working stockdog lines and those alone....

  13. Does anyone make Buffalo whistles anymore?? Custom made Corain whistles???


    I can make decent sound out of my Montana light vs the trianlge shaped whistles...just think it's to small..


    Any tips for finally taking the plunge and practicing whistles WITH my dog??



  14. Yes, the reason i'm skeptical is I had the HD dog on Dasequin for a couple years at $100 a bottle...no lameness issues...took him off it for a year...no change, still no lameness issues ever..


    I do keep him in excellent shape...lots of exercises to stengthen his rear and core....and LOTS of swimming..


    Mostly worried about the old guy who is starting to show the wear and tear of a VERY active lifestyle on his hip with plates and pins in it from an injury when he was younger....short of putting him on anti-inflammatories/pain killers...hoping there would be something else that might make a difference...

  15. I am looking to put my BC with hip dysplasia and our older dog with some arthritis problems on a good joint supplement..


    My question is...is there a HUGE difference between the fancy expensive brands(Consequin, Dasequin, Synovi) and just a generic Glucosamine supplement. If the fancier stuff really has better results I will spend the money...


    Also...can you OD it on the Glucosamine?? I would like to put our younger one on a general dose of glucosamine, suggestions??


    AAANNDDD one more ?...they all are given omega 3 fish oil pills...how do you feel about pills vs the oil that's squirted onto there food??


    And is buying HUMAN versions of these supplements a bad thing?? I just buy the generic fish oil capsules from Target..



  16. I apologize for my confusing post..I didn't mean AT ALL to say that novice handlers don't work JUST as hard as people who attain the highest levels of the sport!! I would say they sometimes work even harder!!! And yes, it can take countless years to gain the knowledge and expertise to get to that level...or you get the young guns in that are just naturally great and excel quite quickly. However they are get there the people at the top of any given sport are there because they excel above the others.


    And I didn't mean to make the "MACH" the be all end all defintion of success in agility..I am sure there are many equivilants with different organizations..I just don't know them because I don't know agility. I just know the MACH like the AKC OTCH is earned based on placements..and points earned by beating other competition. I'm sure the USDAA championship is similar and the ADCH?? I know can be difficult to attain but is similar??


    I also ONLY believe in breeding the border collie for stockwork, and from my experience I have seen PLENTY of amazing agility dogs from strait sheepdog lines, the issue is supply and demand from my perspective. Most agility people I know will not bother going to a stockdog breeder because A) a stockdog breeder won't sell them a pup knowing it will be used for agility primarily B) They just aren't educated enough ....I remember when first starting out in dogs a few years ago there were ALL kinds of rumors surrounding working border collies. I got completely freaked out on buying one from a stockdog breeder!! I would hear things about sheepdogs being to high strung, the breeders don't do health tests, they're to "WEIRD" and "Quirky"....I of course know better now, but it gave me some insight into what some border collie people in the sport world really think...

  17. I don't think there is any shame in recognizing the top trainers/handlers at all....I still watch Alasdair Macrae run a dog in AWE..jaw open...then go back the field and try and get better!!! I would never try and compare myself to him..or others capable of winning an open trial!! OMG the mere thought of getting around is mind boggling!!! I DO want to be there some day but I can recognize my training/handling skills compared to someone who has perfected there craft enough to WIN over all others, are PEANUTS!!


    Same with competitive obedience!! And I'm sure it is the same with Agility!! I know everyone has there own goals and I don't want to take away from novice people who have reached them, but I hope this person isn't getting flack for recognizing some of the top competitive people in her chosen sport and wanting to get there themselves someday..


    I was the same way when first starting out..knew I wanted to excel at whatever I got into..

  18. I don't compete in agility, have "played" a little...just not enought time to to do EVERYTHING with work/kids/dogs/etc...so sheepdog trials and competitive obedience are my thing :) BUT I know many well respected "MACH handlers" in the area as MN is a hotspot for some of the best agility trainers/hanlders around so I've heard??


    From what I understand there are many venues to compete in for agility, but to earn an AKC MACH is to be the best of the best so to speak?? And when the competition is as stiff as it is around here, and it's not just about qualifying or getting titles..but winning the classes by fractions of seconds...takes ULTRA talented trainers and dogs??



    I know ALOT of people who compete in agility just for fun which is TOTALLY cool!! It's fun for the trainer and dog!! I've always wanted to try it!! Really get into it!!


    But like all competitive events there are the really awesome trainers/handlers and dogs..ALL trials I've seen either obedience/agility/herding all have about %80 people who are just trying to "make it through"..make it through the course, get the title, qualify....and then there are those %20 trying to win it!!


    I think this person is generally reffering to that type of person as a "MACH trainer" even if they compete in a different agility venue...someone who is respected as a top competitor??

  19. Will either of them at least lie down so you can get between them and the sheep?? You being in that crucial spot, where your pressure will help push them out and at least not run strait for the sheep will help...


    I wouldn't be worried about to little space, some of the most fabulous work I've seen as young dogs starts out in a smaller space..you can do ALOT!! Get there flanks right, get them right at the top...work on a steady..learning there flanks, stopping, changing directions. I always make sure my dogs are right in a small space and listening before moving to a bigger area..sets both them and you up for success which will build both your confidence!!


    I wouldn't set up a situation right away where they will learn they don't have to listen. You're just gonna make a whole lot of work for yourself. Mentaly and PHYSICALY!! By having to run up the field or chase them down for not listening...

  20. My border collie is five years old and out of no where had a seizure last night. It was about an hour after coming home from a nice long hike. He hadn't eaten or done anything weird that I noticed. I rushed him to the vet where they did a blood glucose check, temp check and drew some blood work which is supposed to come back today...Everything so far was normal. I'm of course completely flipping out..worrying about anything from cancer to brain tumor..to MORE seizures..


    The vet assured me most seizures in dogs are idiopathic and sometimes occur occasionaly...I'm not really comforted by that AT ALL!!!


    If anyone has more insight or experience with seizures in dogs PLEASE SHARE!! Any advice is welcome!!!

  21. THANKS EVERYONE!!! It has been a FUN journey so far!!!


    Shyshepherdess I was in the Open A class! So a newer trainer/handler!! I'm pretty young also, mid twenties so it's been quite the learning experience for me :D


    I mostly train by myself now..I started out in lessons at a pet store, then looked for a better training facility when I decided I wanted to learn more and advance. I started taking classes at an awesome training club and kind of just put my own variation on stuff to fit my dog and I!! I take private lessons here and there and work on my own. I also have a block of "walk-in" classes at a couple different training places and go there weekly, other friends and veteran handlers provide GREAT insight into problem solving :)


    Heeling has been our biggest challenge, FORGING FORGING FORGING!! Learning correct postion and learning to use his body(he is a bit longer in the back, lateral and rear usage were all huge challenges. I didn't think he might EVER make a nice heeling dog!! He proved me wrong :)

  22. My boy and I had a GREAT weekend!!! Decided to try for his first couple CDX legs at a pretty big trial up here..our class was one of the biggest I've ever been in..over 20 dogs both days in open A!! My best bud did GREAT!!! Had a run off the first day for 2nd place and won!! Good boy!!


    Then day 2 we had a class of 25+ dogs...4 way run off for first plaace which we won!!! I was so thrilled!!! He worked his heart out and stayed focused and had fun!! To him of course, he just gets to play with his mom ;)


    We had almost perfect heeling, but were hit 1/2 points on a few fronts...we'll keep working on it!!


    I also decided to try Rally for the first time! I didn't mess up any signs YAY!!! 2 first places with perfect scores of 100 in a HUGE Novice B class!!! The judge said we broke the record for speed on the course we did the second day!!! LOL!! With a bc you gotta motor!! We had fun and might try it again!!

  23. Alright I'm posting another training video of this same pup at 9 months, it shows what she's doing a little bit more for those who don't understand...kind of gives an insight into how she is shaping the heel for this dog also..


    You'll see she is constantly releasing up to either a "hand touch" or to food slightly above heel position and slightly behind her...encouraging that upwatd movement and for him to focus more up and slighlty behind her as opposed to her chest and face which would cause him to forge...she works him a little bit here and there, breaking upward and then setting back up again. She is also working an inside circle which encourages the dog to stay back and up and collect them selves.. toward the end she is working on him keeping his butt aligned with his front and some lateral movement..always breaking and rewarding..the prong is on, but is rarely used and the leash is loose almost the whole time..



  24. OK, when training for competitive obedience we use what's called a "motivational tug"..it's more of a sries of a few tugs, not a POP or FULL on correction...again, correction baed training in where you are trying to inflict actual PAIN on the animal is rarely used from what I've seen since I've been in competitive obedience. The closest I've seen to any kind of abuse would probably be an Ear Pinch retrieve. Anyway, there taught to a young dog using loads of treats and the collar up around the neck by the ear, dog at attention. When the dog is giving you great attention you praise heavily, give a few tugs on the collar and jackpot of treats...you are training the dog to NOT associate the tugs with anything negative and eventually shape the training to be more of a reminder to pay attention. If the dog looks away they get a few tugs and a jackpot of treats when they look back..eventually they graduate to knowing what the tugging means and respond accordingly. The trainer is already at the place in training where she is expecting more out of the pup and learning to really sustain his attention and take some more pressure which I think he is handling beautifuly..


    This trainer is a very accomplished young lady, couple OTCH dogs including her Novice A dog..they all heel differently. She is what I would consider a very creative trainer, always coming up with new training ideas. Her training philosophy is not and should not be defined by the fact that she uses a prong collar to tweak her heeling. The last thing I would consider her is a correction-based trainer.


    I know that this young lab is the most hard headed energetic dog she's trained so far. So that could be the reason for the heeling style, use all that energy and harness it..the previous poster is right also. When you have a dog that has so much forward movement and will have the tendency to forge..it's best to focus that energy UPWARD..hence the bouncy style..also, the reason he has such a pronounced bounce at this age is when teaching young/new dogs to heel you want to teach kind of a cadance. Alot of people train to music or a metronome to teach the dog to keep an even gait. Heeling is like a dance and the owner and dog need to be like one. Getting the dog stride and speed down and getting him to control his body, keep good head position/attention and in synce with the handler are all things this dog is in the baby stage of learning...


    My guess is the bouncy-ness will fade as he matures into a more flued movement, he is probably years away from competing.


    Here is another pic of someone perfomring Shutzund heeling, I know a few people who train for these competitions and the OVERLY enthusiastic heeling style is greatly encouraged..alot more physical than obedience trails..


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