Carson Crazies Posted October 13, 2005 Report Share Posted October 13, 2005 I feel like this is the dumbest question ever, but my frustration is getting away from me. Remember the little rescue Papillon I brought home a couple of months ago? Well, he so happens to be the most stubborn dog in the universe. He's had 2 UTI's so far. He refuses to pee in our back yard off and on. Its insane. I'm unsure of whether the refusing to pee is causing the UTI's, or if the UTI's are causing him to refuse to pee. He will go into the yard and look at me like, "I'm not going to go, and you can't make me". I've tried sitting outside with him for 2 hours, shutting him out there, going in and out of the kennel, etc. Nothing. There appears to be no pattern to it. I've tried putting water into his food to get more into him... doesn't seem to encourage him to pee any more. When he is doing his witholding act, if I leash him and walk him to the un-park, he WILL pee. So, any ideas? Do I just resign myself to walking him when I have to?? Or anyone have any ideas on getting him to pee in the back yard all the time? DH doesn't want me walking him alone after dark, so that poses some stress. He knows what go potty means. When I say it and he *feels* like it he goes. The biggest problem I have is that by walking him when he won't go I'm allowing him to run the show... but if he doesn't pee his UTI's will continue. The vet is stumped. I'm frustrated. Any ideas?? He's taking a Chondro-Flex supplement that is supposed to have the added benefit of reducing inflamation in the Urinary Tract (according to my Vet) as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carson Crazies Posted October 13, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2005 Also, he does NOT have accidents in the house or kennel, except when the UTI's hit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted October 13, 2005 Report Share Posted October 13, 2005 Has your vet throughly investigated the possibility of crystals in his urine or stones in his bladder? Maybe he just needs a longer course of antibiotics because perhaps the UTI is not being cleared up completely each time? At this point I would err on the side of believing that the refusal to pee is because urinating makes him uncomfortable. After exhausting the possibilities for discomfort, then I would look at the problem being strictly behavioral (since it *is* odd that he will go if you take him to the park, but then again, maybe the walk to the park "dislodges" something or otherwise somehow relieves whatever is causing the discomfort in the first place). How's that for a non-answer? Is he neutered? (When Boy was having what we thought were repeated bouts of UTI, it turns out he actually had prostatitis, and neutering solved the problem, but not till I had spent a lot of $$ and worry and had gone to an internal medicine specialist and had an ultrasound of his bladder and associated urinary tract structures....) J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carson Crazies Posted October 13, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2005 Julie, that's the part that concerns me too. I had him X-Rayed for *stones* the first time, and nothing. When this second UTI hit, he had some crystals in his urine, and so we've done 14 days of Baytril, IIRC. Different antibiotic this time anyway. At any rate, at the recheck she said it looked perfect, but I'm not completely convinced that they are doing everything possible to help the little guy out. The other day we went out the door on leash and he promptly peed on the front bushes. So, I just can't decide whether to treat it as behavioral or not. If it *is* behavioral, what do we do?? Yepper, he's neutered. I even checked to be sure. Unless they missed something that hadn't descended, he's been snipped. Vet did say if he comes up with another UTI she'll find out what the crystals are made of to see if we can dissolve them. I don't know why she wouldn't do that the second time?? Argh. He's so teeny, you'd expect him to NEED to pee often. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted October 13, 2005 Report Share Posted October 13, 2005 He definitely does need to pee more often, though not as often as a puppy. I know this sounds dumb and I bet you've already tried it, but have you tried leashing him up, going outside, and doing laps on leash around the fenceline? It is most likely partly behavioral, partly physiological. Dollars to donuts they haven't figured out his whole problem and he's still a little uncomfortable. But for some reason he associates going to the park or for walks, with comfort (maybe he was someplace where he went for walks and he remembers it didn't hurt to pee then?). Pain is a powerful behavior modification tool so it might take some doing to come to some kind of satisfactory understanding with this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipedream Farm Posted October 13, 2005 Report Share Posted October 13, 2005 Can't help with the behavioral aspects. Our greyhound will get a UTI about once a year. We've had good success with giving him cranberry herbal supplements, sometimes even cranberry juice in place of his water. You can get the cranberry pills at just about any drugstore. Renee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miztiki Posted October 13, 2005 Report Share Posted October 13, 2005 I'm just as stumped as you are Laura. As Julie mentioned, perhaps the walking gets the pipes flowing? But if he runs around the yard or even the house before you take him out and he still doesn't go then that would nix that idea. (I just downloaded Metallica and am jamming on my new headphones. :cool: ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carson Crazies Posted October 13, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2005 Yepper, I've tried the leashing and walking around the yard thing. No go. I've ran him around the yard and the house for an hour, no go. Could he just be a picky pee-er?? Then again, when my brother's Bichon was here, Zippy peed and peed and peed in the back yard. Some days he does fine. Some days he's Mr. Stone Cold Won't Pee Zippy. If I could be sure which one it was it would make life easier. The Vet doesn't seem to be too concerned, but I am. I'm wondering if the crystals may be moving around, sometimes making it more comfortable to pee than others. Renee, how much cranberry do you give?? He's 13.8 lbs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipedream Farm Posted October 13, 2005 Report Share Posted October 13, 2005 I just use the human dose on Jasper (2 pills a day). Of course the greyhound is about 75 pounds! Renee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carson Crazies Posted October 13, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2005 Renee, I do believe I'll be giving him less. His Chondro-Flex has Ester-C in it, which I understand is to be good for UTI issues. I'll run by the drugstore and see if I can find some cranberry that I can break today. The Vet tells me if he develops another UTI she'll do the ultrasound and stuff... I'm tempted to go ahead and take him back and ASK for it now. Am I jumping the gun and overreacting?? I'm just not convinced completely that it is behavioral (although it may be partly). Am I letting him "win" by taking him for a walk? But how can I not, when he HAS to go for his own good. On the other hand, if it is behavioral and going for a walk gets him to go... my thighs certainly could use some more walking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted October 13, 2005 Report Share Posted October 13, 2005 I don't think this issue is a manipulation one. It's not consistent enough for that. Again, anytime I see erratic behavioral stuff I want to find a medical reason first. I think it might not be a bad idea to go walkies regularly. You've gotten into this rut of agonizing over the peeing issue - maybe if you just decide not to die on this hill it will help Zip relax. Maybe if Chuck's uncomfortable with you walking alone, he can come too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carson Crazies Posted October 13, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2005 I think it might not be a bad idea to go walkies regularly. You've gotten into this rut of agonizing over the peeing issue - maybe if you just decide not to die on this hill it will help Zip relax. Maybe if Chuck's uncomfortable with you walking alone, he can come too!Me? Agonize?? NEVER! Evidently I have too much time on my hands. Yep, I think I'll just commit to do the walkies and see what happens. It certainly won't hurt me any, and you're right, Zippy might relax with less pressure on him. I'm also going to try the cranberry thing starting today. He definately likes to pee on the fire hydrant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvw Posted October 13, 2005 Report Share Posted October 13, 2005 One of my dogs does not like to go in our "back yard" (fenced area about 12' x 18'). So I just take her out front and she promptly goes. I think she sees peeing in the yard as soiling the crate or something. I got tired of fighting it. Is your dog food motivated? I trained this same dog to pee on command with food. I just teased her with the food. Put the food on the counter and said "lets go pee". Go out and as soon as she peed ran fast back in to get the big reward. Of course this dog lives to eat. She'll do anything for food. Jennifer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2 Devils Posted October 13, 2005 Report Share Posted October 13, 2005 Maybe he just likes to mark and going for walks gives him that chance to "gossip" but who knows. A friend has a dog that has crystals in the urine. They had to switch to a special diet to control it. They even have to watch the treats. Hope you can find the problem. Kim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carson Crazies Posted October 13, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2005 Jennifer, that could certainly be part of it. As I understand it, he was kept in an outdoor kennel (who keeps a Papillon in an outdoor kennel??) with one of his previous owners. His last foster mom said she'd have trouble getting him to go INTO the yard to go, and she thought it was the memory of the kennel. Unfortunately, he is even LESS motivated by food than any of my other dogs. He does like dirty socks though, so maybe I can get him to tug on DH's stinky socks. I suggested to my Vet a change in food, and she didn't seem too interested in the idea. Maybe I should also consider a change in that department (vet) as well, even though I like them very much. Kim, he definately likes to mark, and the neighborhood loose intact black terror leaves him all kinds of opportunities. Thank you small black dog. Thanks, y'all for humoring me. I realize I'm being spastic about it and just need to chill out. Easier said than done some days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miztiki Posted October 13, 2005 Report Share Posted October 13, 2005 You know Laura, people like us tend to overthink some things and there's a reason for it. See, we know almost everything there is to know, so we get really frustrated when we don't have the answer to a problem. Yeah. See, we're geniuses and all. Flipping brilliant we are. Near perfect even. So it's good that we come across something once every few years that perplexes us. It keeps us humble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted October 13, 2005 Report Share Posted October 13, 2005 Laura, I'll ask on one of the natural pet lists I'm on about this and let you know whether they have more ideas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carson Crazies Posted October 13, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2005 Michelle, that must be it. I guess since my worry focus is off of your MRI now I have to choose another "victim". Thanks, Becca - I would appreciate that. I have also changed him over to bottled water (idea of sediment in our water). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrid Posted October 19, 2005 Report Share Posted October 19, 2005 My first Border Collie was not very dominant, he always had to have a clean spot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carson Crazies Posted October 21, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2005 Update for you guys. I changed his food over to Canidae Senior formula. It has cranberry, the yucca stuff, and whatnot in it. I've added a 1xday 300 mg cranberry supplement for him too. Since, he's been happily peeing in the yard, and drinking more. I just have made sure that I'm the one to take him out, and made sure to be very non-chalant about the whole thing -- no added pressure. The first couple of days I still had to walk him once a day, but since then he's been a little angel. I've also been more careful to give him more walkies (that didn't involve peeing) to keep him more active. Seems to be working, as he's been great! I take him for tooth cleaning next week, and I'm going to have them check his urine just to give me some peace of mind. Yay Zippy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miztiki Posted October 21, 2005 Report Share Posted October 21, 2005 I know you're happy about that! Glad to hear it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted October 21, 2005 Report Share Posted October 21, 2005 YAY! I wonder whether the Canidae Senior would be good for Maggie - sounds pretty good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carson Crazies Posted October 21, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2005 It might be Becca. It has several components that are particularly good for urinary tract health, and even has psyllium husks for regularity!! Here is a link to the info on it: Canidae Senior So far I'm feeling pretty pleased with it. I like the main ingredients in Wellness better, but the components like the cranberry and yucca make this (evidently) a better food for Zippy. He finds it pretty tasty too. A downside is that the GSO Pet Supp + doesn't carry any of the Canidae, but a store near my office does. The W-S one might though, they seem to carry a lot more than mine does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keegan's Mom Posted October 21, 2005 Report Share Posted October 21, 2005 Laura, Let me know if you need to me to look around. The groomers where I get our cat food carries Canidae and they probably carry the Senior variety. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carson Crazies Posted October 21, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2005 Thanks Rachel! The "All Pets Considered" up from my office just carries the most wild and thorough selection of the premium foods as I have seen. Its kinda pricey, though, and that's the downside. If they stop carrying the Canidae though, I'll let you know. How's Keegan's leg? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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