marself Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 My puppy is almost 3 months now, his name is Joe. His mother is blue merle and his father is black and white, but I'm confussed with his coat. This are his parents: This was Joe when he was 2 months: But now his coat is getting lighter: What do you think about his brownish color? Do you think that is his father for real? One of his brother is blue merle just like his mother, his sister was almost like him, but then another brother is almost white except for a blue merle spot on his leg and this one is also deaf (that makes me think his father is a phantom merle). Thank you guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 He is a sable merle. Sadly, the color breeders love to select for colors like that. It's possible the mostly white littermate is just heavily white factored. Or, it's possible that pup actually has a different father and is a double merle. Did this "breeder" have a merle stud? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marself Posted May 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 I don't know if the breeder has another stud. There were some spanish mastiff at the place, but I don't think he looks like an spanish mastiff, and he doesn't have the weight of those puppies. What do you mean with "Sadly, the color breeders love to select for colors like that"? I guess you mean the double merle, don't you? Or is there any problem about sable merle dogs? Thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 There's nothing wrong with a sable merle, but there is something wrong with breeding for that (or any other color). And if the sire had a merle parent then the breeder was playing with fire. But then folks who breed for color don't generally care much about anything but the size of the price tag on the pup. You may find that the merling on your pup disappears as it gets older. It frequently does. And pay attention to its nose, skin and coat. He may be prone to sunburn or skin problems, as is a bit more common with merles in general. May I ask why you chose the breeder? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marself Posted May 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 I didn't choose him, he gave me the dog for free because he is my uncle's friend. Anyway, he is not a real breeder, he just work with sheeps and now he wanted to have a litter I don't think he knows about genetics problems. Thank you for answering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloria Atwater Posted May 8, 2015 Report Share Posted May 8, 2015 To be honest, I would question whether that is the only sire for the litter. It strikes me as odd that a blue merle bitch and a black/white dog would throw a reddish/sable merle, and odder yet that two rough coats would throw a smooth coat.Anyhow, he is cute can be and as Geonni said, his coat will change and the spots may fade as he matures. Enjoy him, whatever he is! ~ Gloria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tess's Girl Posted May 8, 2015 Report Share Posted May 8, 2015 I know of a litter where a blue merle bitch and tri dog threw a bunch of sables and a sable merle. the bitch has sable on both his parent's lines. I'm pretty sure the bitch also has red in her lines. I would want to know what the grandparents are as far as coloring. I do also think it's odd that two rough coats would throw a smooth. The dog in my avatar is a sable merle. You can tell from her puppy photos that she is definitely merle but as she aged the merle patches faded. At almost three I would now consider her a phantom of cryptic merle, there are maybe two small patches of merle that you can see if the lighting is right but mostly she appears to just be a sable. So your pup may very well turn more sable and less merle as he ages. But I've also seen merle stay very evident in sable merle dogs as they age. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted May 8, 2015 Report Share Posted May 8, 2015 It's impossible for 2 rough coats to produce a smooth coat. That pup could be a more medium rough coat. Hard to say from the photos. If both parents carried sable, you could get that color. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurelin Posted May 8, 2015 Report Share Posted May 8, 2015 Technically you can get a sable merle from two bicolors. But that would assume both parents are Kk (carrying a recessive). I'm not sure how common that'd be for both parents to carry it hidden under the dominant black but it's technically possible. Tris throwing a sable makes more sense because for the tri points to show up, they'd already have to carry a k. I did think it's weird that he's smooth coated from long haired parents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted May 8, 2015 Report Share Posted May 8, 2015 Technically you can get a sable merle from two bicolors. Nope. Merle is dominant. One parent has to be merle in order for a pup to be merle. It could be a phantom or cryptic merle, whereas Tess's Girl notes the merle isn't very noticeable (one reason why sable merles are discouraged because they often don't appear to be merle, which could inadvertently lead to a double merle mating). Or did you mean that it's possible to get a sable from 2 darker colored parents? That can happen. I'm not aware that it's possible to get a smooth coat from 2 rough coated parents, but in the earlier pics the pup looks rough. Off that it appears to be smooth in the later pics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CptJack Posted May 8, 2015 Report Share Posted May 8, 2015 I kind of suspect appearing smooth coat is because it's going to be medium-ish rough, and at 3 or so months old it's going into the bald stage I've seen a lot of puppies have before foofing out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurelin Posted May 8, 2015 Report Share Posted May 8, 2015 Bicolor meaning not tri/no tan points. Merle/not merle would be separate. You can have bicolor merles and tricolor merles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted May 8, 2015 Report Share Posted May 8, 2015 Bicolor meaning not tri/no tan points. Merle/not merle would be separate. You can have bicolor merles and tricolor merles. But one of those bicolors would still have to be merle to get a sable merle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted May 8, 2015 Report Share Posted May 8, 2015 But merle is a pattern, not a color. Sorry, couldn't resist. I had to read what Laurelin wrote twice, but I figured it out. Not worded clearly, but she is correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurelin Posted May 8, 2015 Report Share Posted May 8, 2015 Yes they would. But the mom is merle so it would be possible. I was just trying to say that since both parents are bicolor (vs tan pointed or sable) then you can't know if under that black/merle bicolor if they are carrying sable. ETA: Sorry for the confusion. I'm half asleep. Couldn't really figure out how to explain what I was trying to say. It also probably doesn't help that I come from shelties where they call blue merle and white bi-blue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted May 8, 2015 Report Share Posted May 8, 2015 OK, gotcha. And, yes, unless you know the dog's history from way back, there'd be no way to know if it carried sable. Many do, of course, since sable was once much more common in collies than it is now. And Liz is also correct that merle a modifier to the color and not the color itself. I was reading Laurelin's original statement as the bicolors being solid bicolors, and that wouldn't necessarily be an accurate reading. So I guess we're actually all in agreement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloria Atwater Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 Hmmm, I don't see any fluff around those ears so I'd still bet on it turning out smooth coat. Either way, it's cute!~ Gloria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 Medium rough coats can look pretty smooth. Kolt has a rough coated smooth looking sire. The tail and coat looked smooth but where thicker and longer than a smooth coated dog. Two littermates were definitely rough coated and one of them has an incredibly thick, full rough coat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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