Faster Weaves

[storminthenight]

So my girl Sakari now has her NA & NAJ title, and a leg in standard and jumpers in Open. She has got to the point were she is doing 12 poles perfectly, this past weekend we entered a trial and she did the weaves fine all 4 runs over two days.

BUT . . . she is extremely slow & deliberate about it, and now that we are in Open we need to gain some speed.

She started out learning with the 2X2 method, and got to the point she could do 6 poles very close together, but if you put the poles straight she didn't get it. So one day at home I put the weaves straight and pointed/directed her, and after doing that a couple of times (telling her "in, out, in, out") she got it.

I recently tried using guide wires, and at first she tried jumping over them, then after a few attempts I did get her to do 12 weaves with them, but I think it actually slowed her down.

If I encourage her I can get her to go a bit faster, but she sometimes pops out on the last couple of weaves, so I'm afraid to do it to much during a competition.

So apart from just practising with her more, is there anything I can do to speed her up a bit?

[muttlycrew]

Is she toy motivated at all? I found that throwing a toy (underhand or rolling it on the ground) got my dogs driving through it faster with their heads down. For my dog that is not toy motivated, there are tons of food-stuffable toys on the market.

 

I trained all of mine using the channel weaves -- I'd love to try the 2x2 method as I've heard nothing but good things about it, but I did not have the funds to invest in a good 2x2 base at the time. I've had great success with the channels and my girls all caught on extremely quickly. Once the poles are almost closed, I close the middle poles first and keep the beginning/end more open. I find this keeps the dogs driving in and out of the weaves quickly. I jackpot for faster weaves (more treats, more ball playing, longer tug session, etc). When I do work on speed for weaves or contacts, I keep the angles on the entries pretty basic, especially for more novice dogs.

 

A lot of the time speed comes from the dog feeling more confident and understanding the criteria.

[PSmitty]

Ditto Katy. Alex will drive through the weaves fastest for a ball. I throw it underhand ahead of him as he's exiting the last pole, so his focus is ahead (I don't want him to turn around and look at me for the ball). I taught him using channels, and always targeted beyond the last pole with a toy or ball, something to get him moving fast through them. It's possible Kari just needs more practice and confidence. Don't push on her too hard to get through them too fast before she's ready, or she may pop out. I'd practice with her a little each day (if you have your own poles), and try a reward that really gets her going, like a toy or ball. Weaves are not our strong point by any means, though, so take that with a grain of salt.

 

I taught my first agility dog with the "lure 'em through" method (due to poor instruction). She always had solid weaves but s-l-o-w.

[muttlycrew]

I agree with the "don't push her too hard". If you over do it and stress out about it, it could cause her to slow down. Also, I have seen several people who "cheerlead" their dogs the entire course to try and speed them up -- as a result, the dog usually slows down as an effort to send calming signals to their owner/handler....which makes the handler cheerlead more, and the dog to slow down even more or shut down all together. I'm not saying this is what is happening or that it happens with all dogs, but sometimes people don't think about it.

 

For one of my dogs, I recently gave her a summer break from training/competitions. The heat really slowed her down and I felt she was doing agility to make me happy, not because she really wanted to do it. I recently took her to some run-thrus this weekend to get her ready for our next trial and she was smokin' fast -- she blew everyone (and me!) away. I've never seen her so happy to be out playing. I'm really looking forward to the trialing season now.

 

She has always been the "less is more" kind of dog. The more reps I do, the more she thinks she is doing something wrong. Even though I want to do that drill over and over (for practice for myself!), I have to be aware of what my dog is telling me. My other dogs could do it all day, over and over and over and over and over.....

[storminthenight]

I have a home made set of 6 weaves at home, but mostly we just practise at the club. Before the trial we practised twice a week for maybe 15 minutes on 12 weaves, mainly just to get her really confident in completing them, and then I started encouraging her to go faster, and had some success. I always make big fuss of her when she does it right, and jackpots for faster runs

I did try using a ball, and it did actually speed her up, BUT she was more interested in the ball than listening to me and paying attention to what she was doing, so she would often pop out, although we did get a couple of quicker complete run throughs.

Kari's first trial was in May this year, and we didn't enter another until this past weekend, so I dont think I'm pushing or working her too hard, plus I dont really have any equipment at home, so we are usually training once a week at the club.

I'm really proud of her for doing the weaves perfectly in all four runs this past weekend, in our first trial we made several attempts at 6 poles in most of our runs (but thats ok in Novice) so a BIG improvement, especially considering 3 out of 4 runs was a set of 12.

Thanks for all the advice guys, its really appreciated did I mention Kari is my first ever agility dog? lol. I think with more practise and time she will get faster. When she does the weaves her head is down, and you can really see her concentrating, here are the two pictures I have of her weaving from Saturday . . .

[muttlycrew]

What is the weave spacing? I know when I trained at home and my weaves were 22" apart and then at trials they started introducing the 24" spacing, it threw some of mine off. Now that mine are 24", there is no issues.

 

Regarding the ball issue, my Stella did get sticky at first when I would bring out her ball. I ended up hiding it on me and if she did a really fast rep, I threw the ball. I immediately put it back up and her next rep would be even faster. If her rep was so-so she got food. She can now work for any toy/treat and rarely gets sticky.

 

I think that Kari will gain speed with more confidence and practice. You can always build a practice set of 6 poles for about $25. I don't glue the base together so that I can easily transport them from different location.

 

Have you tried putting a target down (like Paula suggested)? I found this helped my dogs drive through and keep their focus ahead, instead of looking at me and relying on me being next to them.

[storminthenight]

I will have to try the target plate and see if it helps, although I have tried walking infront & behind her and she still weaves, it might help to speed her up though, as long as she doesn't just skip the weaves to get the treat, lol.

I think the weaves at the club that we have been practising on are the new 24" spacing. I will keep trying with the ball in practise, the other day she took the ball and ran in the tunnel, she then left it in the tunnel and I had to crawl in to get it, lol.

[Andale]

Here's a method by Nancy Gyes of PowerPaws Agility, using a back chaining approach with channel weaves and guide wires. I'm using this to re-train weaves with my BC Speedy. My goal is to increase confidence, speed, and consistency. Not saying it is the single best way to train weaves but it has been used quite successfully by other high level agility folks.

 

http://www.powerpawsagility.com/articles/C...WiresDec_07.pdf

[muttlycrew]

Regarding the treat on the target plate, I actually encourage students when training alone to use a Tupperware container. So your dog still can focus on there being a reward, but since the lid is closed, only YOU can reward/jackpot. That way you don't have to worry about them self rewarding themselves

 

And since she runs off with the ball, is she tug motivated?

[gcv-border]

ditto on using channel weaves. Torque is very speedy through the weaves, but recently he slowed. Not sure what I was doing to cause that, but I reworked his speed by opening up the channels and letting him fly through the weaves. Then I gradually closed them. I think he was trying to hard to not make a mistake on the weaves, and by opening up the weaves, he gained confidence since the weaves were easier.

 

My instructor also had me try something else: I don't know if I can explain it precisely, but I will try. (I think this works best for those dogs that know how to weave but have slowed up or need encouragement to move faster.) You basically set up a race between you and the weaving dog. Get your dog energized before going into the weaves, then let them blast through a few (3 or 4) weave poles. Then step in front of them in the middle of weave poles (it takes a bit to get the timing down), stopping their progress, and reward them for their speed. Keep the happy voice and the energy going. Then keeping them amped up, bring them around and let them blast through the first few weaves again. Treat again. The psychology behind this is that your dog wants to go fast through the poles (they get treats). And to a certain extent, you are building a little frustration in your dog since they are racing you through the weaves and you interrupt them. It's like "Mommy, what are you doing? I want to finish the weaves."

 

This worked well for my dog also. Remember, only do this a few times each training session so they don't get turned off with multiple repetitions. Once they get "the game", you can gradually increase the # of weave poles they complete before you step, in until they achieve all 12. Even if my dog is doing fine on his weaves, I will occasionally throw this in during training to remind him that he needs to speed through the weaves.

 

Jovi

[SecretBC]

I trained Secret to weave via the 2x2 method and I used treats for that -- because if you want to do multiple repetitions of anything with her, she requires food. The bad thing about food, at least with her, is that she definitely goes slower.

 

So.... Once the initial work was done and she was pretty solid on six poles (six poles in six days!), I started to introduce toys into our weave training. I have opened the gates slightly into what essentially equals channel weaves -- This helps them to learn to blast through them faster and encourages a single-stepping action.

 

We did lose quite a bit of accuracy when the toys were first brought into the game, but so long as your dog has a good understanding of the concept, just keep trying and reward the correct attempts. Secret would get so jazzed up that she would either miss her entry or she would start popping early -- I would just use her NRM ("oops!") and quickly reset to try again. You need to keep the energy level up and not let them deflate (easy to do with my soft dog!).

 

Incorporating toys is almost always the way to go to pull out speed from a dog -- although my Klee Kai is a quirky little dude who will only work for food and he's wicked fast, so it can be done.

 

Some dogs harbor buggaboos over weaves. One of my trainer friends has a Dalmatian who is an awesome agility dog, but the weaves give him a monumental amount of mental stress. He goes from a run straight to a walk when he hits the weaves, puts his head down and meanders through them at a snail's pace. My friend has done EVERYTHING to make the weaves a happy place for him -- He is starting to pick up speed a bit on the 24" poles that we always see at trials now. But he's six and has just always been this way. He always nails his entries and can even do weaves at a considerable distance (as seen in NADAC Chances, a class he actually excels in!) -- He just does them slowly.

[storminthenight]

Thanks for all the great advice everyone, I will definitly keep trying with the toys.

I dont think Kari would tug, infact as long as my other dog Lootah is around all she does is keep her eyes on him, if he runs after a ball she runs after him.

So most of the time she's not interested in toys at all. Obviously Lootah isn't around when we are training, and one day I just thought I'd try getting a couple of toys out to see if she would take any interest. At first she just chased the ball, and now she runs and picks it up (not bringing it to me yet).

But anyway, at least she is actually playing with toys now.

I'm signing up for the Advanced agility class starting Oct 7th (the only agility class we have not taken at the club yet).

Edited to add: a friend got a video of our novice jumper run that we earned our title with, thought I would share . . .

[SecretBC]

Thanks for sharing! Video is always so helpful.

 

What I can see from your video is that you are a very careful handler. It looks like you try to micromanage the run a bit, likely in an attempt to keep control. This is very common with new/novice handlers -- They are scared to make a mistake, so they slow their dog down so that they can stay ahead and control everything.

 

In order to get speed out of your dog, you really have to throw this out the window. Your dog looks afraid to make a mistake a she is running slow because of this.

 

I would abandon precision for the time being and reward your dog for speed. If she runs around a jump, keep running -- So long as she is RUNNING. Over-correcting a dog causes them to run slow. You are babysitting the weaves like crazy -- Practice until you are confident that she has an independent weave performance, especially the entries, because you really hover. Hovering handlers suck the speed out of a dog like nothing else.

 

So in short, loosen the reins and let her go. It's scary at first when your dog is way faster than you, but you learn to handle it and they learn to listen. Remember that agility is a game, not an obedience exercise. Your dog should be running with joy. Make it fun for her!

[storminthenight]

Thank you for watching and giving a perspective from a more experienced eye. At the point we were at, I figured precision was more important than time. Kari keeps her eyes on me, and we are just now getting to were we can do a rear cross, because at first she would NOT go ahead of me.

This was only our second ever trial, but I actually saw her speed up overall without my encouragement, especially on the jumper courses, I think she enjoys them more than standard.

I know I need to loosen up more and just run it, but I am scared of making mistakes. I think the speed is just going to come over time with both me and Kari getting more confident. I know when it came to the weaves I was especially careful because I knew we would be moving up to Open and you pretty much have to get the weaves first time if you want to qualify.

I don't think Kari is afraid to make a mistake because of me, she's always been very cautious and slow until she's more sure of things. When we are training she gets big praise/rewards whenever she does it right, and maybe an 'at' and lets try again when she doesn't. I've never been harsh on her.

In training I've tried running ahead of her, staying behind, and staying with her like I did in the trial. The only time I really saw a speed increase was if I stayed with her and cheerleaded.

Next time we go to the club I'm going to try the target plate, and try incorporating toys more too. I think when we get into the advanced agility class that will help, and I can try "just running" and working more on speed.

[muttlycrew]

That was a good run! I agree with what Karissa said.

 

Some dogs are more motivated when the handler runs with them, creating a type of race. One of my girls was like that for the longest time, and still is to some degree. If I sped up she would start to rush and was clearly uncomfortable. After her summer break, she is now zooming ahead of me. I can't say she wasn't confident before, but I definitely feel she has "come into her own". I am excited for the upcoming trialing season. I spend half the time laughing at how goofy and happy she is. I'd trade in those laughs for a Q any day.

 

This weekend I am running my newest addition -- our goals for her first trial are:

 

1. Hold our start-line stay

2. Get our contacts

 

Keeping the bars up and getting the weaves the first time (both of which she does in class and at run-thrus) are going to be an added bonus. I don't care about the Q's -- I just care about making this first experience a good one for her. If she breaks her stay on the table when I lead out, big deal! I'd rather go put her back on now than have table issues later on down the road. The same goes for everything else. I am looking at this trial as a "what do we need to be working on". I hope we make tons of mistakes as when we are in class we never have issues with any of the Advanced/Excellent courses.

 

There's nothing like running a babydog -- they grow up way to fast. Enjoy it and have fun!

[alligande]

A problem I can relate too:

 

Firstly I have a dog who is also very precise, in the beginning his weaves were fine, but as I wanted more accuracy we lost speed and rather than a border collie he became a snail. The other problem we have is overall speed on the course (I wont get into camping on the Aframe) Brody only works for food. We have been training just over 2 years and this is our second summer trialing.

 

1: the weaves, I have been working on speeding weaves up all this summer. At home I have a set of 12 straight poles and I used wire to create baskets around them similar to using x-pens but more economical. I hoped this would give Brody the confidence to go through at speed and not worry about popping out. I also used an extremely high value treat, something so delicious that that he would fight me for it. My husband who is really Brodys human is also sometimes paired with the disgusting treat for added value.

 

At the start of the program he got the food at the end of every attempt, this was phased to fast runs only and I have been slowly upping the anty. I have been very slowly rolling back the wire, sometimes I have had to put it back as he would slow down where there was no support.

 

The overall improvement has been immense, we have still being trialing and taking class every week with regular weaves. We are still not were we need to be but we are on the road to speed.

 

Edited to add: we only do this a few nights a week with 3/4 runs through, some weeks we have a break.

 

2: Precision versus speed: Brody is also my first dog and at the start he had speed he was never going to be a ferrari but there was enough and he had fun jumping. As we progressed with our training he has slowed, because I believe he does not want to get things wrong. On course I am always telling him he should be embarrassed that a middle age woman can out run him.

I have attended seminars about speed and read everything I can get my hands and I think it can be summed up by, if he makes a mistake its your handling that caused it, don't stop, keep running, don't let them know there is a problem. Precision will come with confidence and time, and your improved handling.

 

We are the only dog that does this in class, at the end of the run we will go back and try the sequence that went wrong. It seems to be working....

 

I regard getting a Q as a crap shot, sometimes we have a great day and others are best not remembered. I feel we should have our novice regular title by now, but we run clean but don't make time... so we are working on time, I am competitive and I do want to Q but I have to remind myself this about Brody and I playing agility and we will get there in the end. And to be really honest I have a young dog who is going to be a ferrari and so although I want Brody to become better at Agility and it has taught me a lot as a trainer I am less concerned knowing I will have the opposite problem next summer

[storminthenight]

I think I'm actually very lucky to have Kari as my first agility dog, so far we have qualified in 8 out of 10 runs, missing one because she knocked a bar, and one as a result of a bad decision on a front cross from me.

She definitly has fun at the trials, after we run she struts around all proud of herself, lol, and no matter if we qualify I still give her lots of praise.

Considering that when we first started training she was SO unsure of herself, its great to see her having fun, thats what it all about right

[SecretBC]

I know how hard it is to not focus on the Q's when you first start out -- It's almost impossible NOT to judge yourself based on your Q rate.

 

But believe me, your Q rate at Novice (even Open) is not important in the long run.

 

It took Kaiser forever to get his Novice titles because my mantra with him was, "Don't fix a damn thing, just run." This is what he needed to build his speed & confidence. It took a little longer than I would have liked (he used to get massive ring stress), but it worked. He sailed through Open and is doing very well in Elite. Time is definitely not an issue with him (and NADAC time is tight) -- His NQ's these days are from off course obstacles, generally, because the little turd is running so fast that I often find myself late with the cue. Handler's mistake!

 

The more you can unleash your velcro dog, the faster she will run for you -- Because you can stay to the inside on a shorter path to keep ahead of her, motivating her to go faster. Working on your distance skills should help her to feel confident enough to run faster, but only if you give her the freedom to make mistakes and learn from them. No corrections, just do it better the second time. As was stated above, 99.99% of the mistakes in agility are the handler's fault. We can be frustrated with ourselves, but we must not let on to the dog that we are upset.

 

Truthfully, this is knowledge that will come to you with time. There isn't any magic bullet we can give to new handlers to make them understand the importance of this type of training. Luke was my first dog and he has definitely gotten faster over the years due to me becoming a better handler. Kaiser and now, Secret, are reaping the rewards of my previous experience and aren't having to meddle through the learning process with me.

 

Bless our first agility dogs, they are saints!

[storminthenight]

Lol, I can definitly see her being less of a velcro dog in the future, even at this trial I was able to send her ahead of me when it came to the last few jumps.

Thanks everyone for sharing advice and experience, I sent off our entry for a trial at the end of October yesterday. I will keep you updated on our progress.

[BCjetta]

I trained my dog years ago at the weaves and she was never that confident or accurate. She has drive, but pops out etc. I tried putting the guides on and she would go over them or under them - almost like she thought she was supposed to jump them. I kept at it for a while so she could get used to them being there and now finally she doesn't just try to go over or under, she does the weaves and doesn't obviously notice the guides. I rev her up a bit and then run with her through them.

I've started training hubby's dog with channel weaves and 1 person each end. The far end person has a treat and he knows it, and I hold him back and get him revved up and then release him to run and get the treat. So far he's got a lot of speed and the weaves are getting fairly close together. I think its a way better way of training it than the older way of luring them through the weaves (which is how I trained my dog in the beginning).

 

Just curious, what venue are you trialing in and what height is she jumping? I'm just curious because in Canada we mainly just have AAC. Dogs over 18 inches jump 22 inches tall, dogs over 22 inches jump 26 inches tall and that is the tallest it gets.

[gcv-border]

I agree with not babysitting the dog through the course - just let it run to keep the speed and the consistency will come. At least that is what I tell myself. I too have seen or heard of the dogs that are slow because of controlling handlers. My goal is to be fast and consistent. The fast part is no problem -- Torque often runs a Novice jumpers course around 20 secs (once as fast as 17 seconds where the standard course time was about 38 seconds). If you notice, I said NOVICE jumpers - and therein lies the problem (lack of correct performance consistency). I have not yet achieved a level of consistency where I can expect to Q. If I Q, it is more of a surprise. I wouldn't necessarily recommend this approach to anyone, but when I started Torque, I realized that a) he was blazing fast, B)I liked it - it was exciting to run him although frustrating too since the Qs were few and far between, and c) he was having a great time - and I keep reminding myself that it is a game after all.

 

Am I wasting money by not working harder to get control, and therefore get more Qs? Probably, but I am seeing more consistency in his performance now and I am hoping it is only a matter of time. I figure that I am never going to make a National team so as long as my dog is having fun and both of us show continued improvement, I am happy.

 

BTW, he did get his NAJ a couple of months ago, then hurt himself about 3 weeks ago so the agility is on hold. There is such a thing as being too fast and hurting yourself. He is such a big goof. And yes, he is my first agility dog (a saint) so I have to give him a break for being saddled with me.

 

Jovi

[wgg]

First off HI! I'm been lurking awhile and haven't really posted much. I completely agree with SecretBC, it is hard, but in the huge overall picture a Q isn't worth a nickle if your dog isn't having a great time. It is hard, but you can find something great from every run, even without a Q. I think sometimes newbies try so hard to move up quickly, but what's the rush? Honestly, after watching the video, you may want to stay in Novice for awhile b/c the courses are generally have more flow and you can really work the baby dog. If you get up to excellent where handling becomes much more precise, it can really de-motivate a dog struggling with motivation. BTW, a think your dog is sooo cute! I love the spots!

[SecretBC]

Just curious, what venue are you trialing in and what height is she jumping? I'm just curious because in Canada we mainly just have AAC. Dogs over 18 inches jump 22 inches tall, dogs over 22 inches jump 26 inches tall and that is the tallest it gets.

 

It looks like AKC and the dog is jumping 20".

 

AAC has jump height divisions similar to USDAA. AKC breaks it down a bit more, as do NADAC & CPE, allowing dogs to jump lower than they would in USDAA. USDAA pretty much requires a dog to jump higher than their withers in Championship (you can drop down one height class if you run Performance). The other organizations in this country are a bit more "height friendly" and offer more options to run your dogs at lower heights.

 

Speaking of jump heights, you may find that Kari goes faster at a lower height. I tend to start my baby dogs in the Skilled division of NADAC, allowing them to jump 4" lower than their measured height. It builds confidence & speed.

 

Secret will have to jump 26" in the Championship division of USDAA, so I'll probably hold off on starting her in USDAA until she's run for a little while in NADAC to build her confidence. Tick, tock, tick, tock -- Such a pain waiting for them to turn 18 months.

[muttlycrew]

I second the comment about running a dog in a lower height to start out. Last year I started my golden girl right at 15 mos (ACK) but jumped her in Preferred for almost a year. This year she is back in the baby classes but jumping her "real" height. She now has the speed and confidence to jump her real height and keep all the bars up -- a plus! We will start doing some USDAA now that she is more comfortable with the bigger height (she jumps 24" in ACK).

 

Stella had her first run this morning and she measured in at 19" at 18 mos so I have no issues jumping her at 20".

[airbear]

Just curious, what venue are you trialing in and what height is she jumping? I'm just curious because in Canada we mainly just have AAC. Dogs over 18 inches jump 22 inches tall, dogs over 22 inches jump 26 inches tall and that is the tallest it gets.

Not that it's pertinent to this discussion, but in AAC, dogs over 16" jump 22", and dogs over 21" jump 26". Everyone has the option of running his/her dog one jump height lower, in a class called Specials, but you can't go back and forth between Regular and Specials.