We finally did it!

[Jody&Jake]

I am so stoked Jake and I went to his herding instinct test today. This was also my first time anywhere near sheep. I was a little worried about the sheep banging into my newly repaired knee, but Jake had no qualms what so ever. He passed with flying colors. Who'd of "thunk" it? Not me, that's for sure.

 

I wasn't so sure that Jake was going to be any good at all considering I have never seen him even try to herd anything since we got him three months ago. Seeing sheep for the first time and those herding genes just kick right in I guess.

 

I had a great time also, so it looks like Jake's (and Jody's!) training will begin shortly. Might get to meet some of you some YEAR out on the field.

 

Jody & Jake

[G_Davis]

That's so cool, I love to hear about first "outings". How long since your knee was repaired? I ask, because I was worried about the same thing -- I took my dog to sheep the first time about 2 months after a knee surgery, without having any re-strengthening or exercise at all (unless you count moving your family & household 2000 miles). I got bumped & jostled quite a bit, the sheep were real "knee-knockers".

 

I've been injured alot in my life, and I've learned a few small things about injuries. Here's one of the most important & most difficult -- while you should never do too much too soon, the toughest thing is to go ahead and put it to the test at some point, just forget about it and try to function normally. You tend to fall into mental & physical patterns & compensations as you go through injury & recovery, which can do more harm than good after awhile, and sometimes it's tough to remember that it's time to break the pattern and get over the hump. As far as the knee, when you're out there with a chance of getting bumped, just concentrate on keeping the knee flexed, slightly bent -- never get straightened out and bumped -- that's the worst. Stay light on your feet and don't dig in, like turning the double-play -- better to flop than get mashed with your foot planted.

 

Hope to hear more herding stories!

[Jody&Jake]

Jon Katz of "A Dog Year" fame was my "instructor" in the pen and a hell-of-a nice guy. He told me to keep my knees bent and relaxed at all times. I just wasn't sure if I should stand kind of parallel to the sheep and face them head on.Couldn't decide if hit which way I could relieve the force from the hit the easiest. I used his crook the first time I went in and that gave me a little more security but then I was trying wo figure out just how I was going to use it if a stampede came my way :eek:

 

My surgery was just a clean up of the cartlidge and I have been going to physical therapy since the second day after surgery. It's really my other knee that worries me more. That one has a partially torn ACL, and I figure one good shot from the side would complete the tear and require another surgery immediately. I wouldn't mind so much but since I am still recovering and don't have full strength back I would rather not have to attend another surgery so soon.

 

Right now I plan to attend my first class next weekend. I will let you know how it turns out. Jake was looking at me this morning with this baleful look in his eyes just begging "When are we going again, can we go today?, in not today..............I think I've created a monster

 

Jody & Jake

[Eileen Stein]

I didn't know Jon Katz was administering herding instinct tests. What was the test like? Can you tell us more about it?

[Thor]

Instinct test? How is that supposed to happen?

[Jody&Jake]

Jon, was helping out Carolyn Wilki who recently had hip surgery. Carolyn was on her ATV with a microphone and speaker running the show with a few other people there to help out.

 

The test was for any dog, not just BC's. It was to determine just how much herding instinct your particular dog has. While we were there, there was a Sheltie, ACD, and a Corgie.

 

As we pulled up in the car I heard a very strange noise coming from the back. Jake, who had never seen sheep before was just about freaking out stairing out the window and coming out with strangest whine I have ever heard.

 

I was asked to walk Jake around the outside of the pen a few times off leash, to see how he would react to the 5 sheep that were inside a small square pen. Naturally, he was very curious and as the sheep would move, so would he. We were then let into the pen with another helper. Jake showed great restraint until I released him and then he took off after them. Neither of us has any training at all with herding so he was working with instinct on his part and sheer terror on mine. :eek: The helper would move Jake to different sides of the flock to see if he would keep them together and just basically to see how he would move them with commands. This went on for about four minutes and to tell you the truth it happened so fast I wasn't sure what he or I just did, kind of a blur.

 

When I got to the other pen another Sheltie was just finishing up being tested then Carolyn let her dog Dave in. What a pleasure it was to watch Dave move to commands like that and how he could control the flock.

 

The larger pen was maybe 130 feet in diameter, and this time Jon went in with me. The larger pen allowed Jake to move the flock around a little easier than the small one. Again, we were only in it for a couple of minutes but Jon and Carolyn seemed please with Jakes performance, there was no mention of mine! After watching Dave though we have a looooong way to go!

 

 

At the end Jake was given a grade sheet for the following catagories; Control, Interest, Movement of Stock, Temperment, Power, Balance/Distance to control Stock, Responsiveness to direction/control, Approach, Eye, Wearing, Bark (he flunked this one!); Dog Shows Ready To Adjustment To; Fetching,Tending,Driving,Other.

 

It was all very interesting and exciting. I am not sure how involved I will get but I am always looking to try different things in life and if this were to work out for both of us, so be it. Hope I hope this long winded message didn't bore you hard core herding folks but then again you'll get to laugh at all my mistakes

 

One thing I did miss was meeting Jon's dog, Devin. If you've read Jon's book you know all about him and I was anxious to meet him but there were too many other dogs around and he thought it might get a little out of hand. Next time I suppose.

 

Jody & Jake

[Bill Fosher]

Jody,

 

I don't know too much about herding instinct tests. They are not part of the traditional Border collie training methods that I learned. But if flunking "bark" means that he didn't bark, that's a very good thing. A Border collie that barks at stock is a Border collie that lacks confidence. I wouldn't be too worried about a young pup barking at first, but if it continued I would have my doubts about it.

 

And how anyone would realisticly assess all the traits you listed in a four-minute session the first time the dog sees sheep is beyond me. I have a bitch that I have been working with for three years, and I'm still wondering just how powerful she is. Sometimes, she seems like she can change the direction of the whole flock just by shifting her chin a little bit. Other times she has to be in there clacking her jaws behind their hocks to get them moving at all.

 

It's great you got started. But I think you will get a lot more out of this journey if you hook up with someone who trains Border collies in the traditional fashion. You won't get titles or herding instinct scores, but you will get to understand what really goes on in that three-species communication that we call work.

[Jody&Jake]

Thanks Bill. This is just the first step for both of us and like I said at the start if either of us find it's not for us we will look to another activity. Jake was barking quite a bit but I was told that with more familiarity with sheep that he would probably stop it. He did not act like he wasn't confidient being around the stock but then again he wasn't always on the charge with them.

 

Do you have any names of trainers in the NJ-PA-NY area? I was going to go back this weekend for a couple of days of training but the timing isn't going to workout. I would also like to find someone who would do one on one training.

 

Jody & Jake

[juliepoudrier]

Hi Jody,

Gene Sheninger is in NJ, but I'm not sure how far he is from you. Melanie (Solo River) is a student of his--she drives from Philadelphia to take lessons. I've heard good stuff about him. If Melanie sees this maybe she can give you contact information. I have it somewhere, and I'll look around for it too.

 

You might also find potential contacts if you go to the Northeast Border Collie Association (NEBCA) website:

 

http://www.frontenac.net/~duke/nebca/newhome.htm

 

If you check the "executive" or "committees" tabs you will get a list of officers and other committee members. I'm sure someone would be glad to help you find what you need!

 

J.

[Eileen Stein]

Gene Sheninger is in Boonton, NJ, and his email is esheninger@worldnet.att.net. He would be a good person to contact. If you would care to write me privately (eileen@bordercollie.org) I might be able to give you another suggestion or two.

 

The question of how to find a good trainer is one I have been giving a lot of thought to. I have to say that I was appalled by the herding section of Jon Katz's book (although I agree he sounds like a very nice guy). Using a clicker in training a border collie on sheep, for example, is just so fundamentally misguided that it would be a huge red flag for me. But how can someone who's just starting out be expected to see that?

 

The problem is much bigger than one particular person or one facility. It's all too easy for someone who has bought a trained dog, and who has sheep and facilities with which that trained dog looks great, to appear to be an expert. But it ain't necessarily so. Also, I used to think that anyone who knew more than I did was someone whose help I could benefit from. Wrong! It's very hard to recover from bad training at the start, and it's very hard to recognize bad training when you're starting out. That's the problem, and I haven't come up with a good, generalize-able way to solve it. Bill is right, though, that there's a general consensus about how to train a working border collie among those who HAVE successfully trained working border collies (even though details may differ), and you're better off starting out within that tradition.

 

Anyway, I'm glad Jake has met some sheep, and that you and he enjoyed the experience. And don't worry about the barking -- many a good sheepdog barks from excitement and uncertainty the first few times he's around sheep (or even longer). It usually goes away as he gains experience.

[SoloRiver]

Gene has a new email address: esheninger@optonline.net. He's exactly 100 miles from Philadelphia, and about 40 from NYC.

 

I have a friend who took her Terv to an instinct test like the one described. However, they never actually let him into the pen with the sheep, but kept him circling around the outside (which very greatly frustrated him). However, he was passed with high marks. The thing is, he actually is quite nice on sheep, but from how he was "tested," how would they know?

 

-- Melanie, Solo the Red, and The Fly

[Bill Fosher]

Hi Jody,

 

Gene was the person who popped into my mind as well. I have heard tell that New Jersey is a large place, so I don't know how close or far he would be from you.

 

I think that the URL Julie listed for NEBCA still works, but it might be easier to remember http://www.nebca.net

 

I've panned Katz's book before, so I won't go off on that rant again. But suffice it to say that I think it would be very risky to take a dog to someone with as little experience as he has. I have been working with Border collies on mainly on sheep nearly every day for the past nine years or so, and I don't consider myself qualified to take on students.

 

I'm sure he's a nice guy and that he loves his dogs. He may even be a good trainer of pet dogs. But this is fully different.

[Jody&Jake]

Thanks Everyone for your thoughts and information both on the board and off.

 

I have in numerous other endeavors, searched out advise after an initial contact with the sport or event I was interested in getting involved with. There will always be many opinions and differing advice, but usually one or two ideas or suggestions will resonate with a group of knowledgeable people. I find that is usually a good place to start.

 

Gene Sheninger is very close by, about 15 miles away, so he might be a good start for me, not just because of proximity but because he was mentioned by three of you indicating some kind of consensus.

 

I will also seek out suggestions from the NEBCA, although I have found most organizations usually have political favors to pay back and therefore have a tendency to recommend someone based more on a relationship than performance. I hope that the NEBCA is different.

 

Thanks again, this board and the people on it is the greatest!

 

Jody & Jake

[juliepoudrier]

Hey Bill,

Leave it to me to make something so simple completely complicated! As I was pasting the address from my bookmarks it occurred to me that there was a simpler address, but I'm getting on in years and couldn't remember it! So maybe it's time to go change the bookmarks!

 

Funny about Jon Katz. I first heard about him on NPR and his story sounded interesting. Then I found out he had gone the *** herding route with his dogs, and I just lost interest in reading his book.

 

Jody,

Gene is a really nice guy. His students all seem to be quite happy with him, and they all do pretty well at trials (at least the ones I've attended). Gene himself is a national-level open handler. The fact that he is so close to you is a great bonus. Many people drive an hour or more (I drive two) for lessons from trainers who are good. And I don't owe him any favors either!

 

J.

[SoloRiver]

Funny about Jon Katz. I first heard about him on NPR and his story sounded interesting. Then I found out he had gone the *** herding route with his dogs, and I just lost interest in reading his book.

 

How long has he been herding? I've been doing it for almost two years, does that mean I can hang out my shingle now? Scary.

 

Aren't his dogs Barbie Collies?

[Sabreur]

Don't know what lines Katz's dogs are from.

 

He had his first dog, Devon, forced upon him basically--the dog was over a year old, and had been trained for obedience, and was a psych case. A breeder had read one of Katz's earlier books, and decided he would be the perfect owner. Katz had a couple of fat, docile labs, and didn't have a clue what to do (I can relate--when I got my Border Collie--found abandoned on the street in front of my office--I also was a long time dog owner who was completely clueless about Border Collies).

 

He got his second dog, who's name I can't remember, from the same woman who arranged his adoption of Devon--the second dog was evidently much easier to deal with. He got the second dog because both of his labs died in the course of a year.

 

My impression of his book was that he made a lot of mistakes, but also cared deeply about the dogs--deeply enough to go through all the trials and tribulations he describes in the book. Since he is someone who stumbled into Border Collies, rather than picking the breed, I have to give him a lot of respect. Many people would have ditched the dog.

 

I didn't realize he was on the *** side--but I still think he comes across as a pretty decent owner--however, the lines of fact and fiction are pretty blurred in his books, I think.

 

Cheers, MR

[Eileen Stein]

I agree that Jon Katz portrayed himself as caring deeply about his dogs (he's the author, remember, so he shapes the story), and I have no reason to doubt that it's true. I didn't know that he was doing AKC stuff. In a way I'm not surprised, since that's the way he would be steered by his breeder and trainer, but in a way I am, since he gave the impression, both in the book and in private correspondence, that he was not interested in competitive activities with his dogs.

 

What bothers me about the book is that people who read it will get a totally wrong impression about border collies, because he has no depth of knowledge about the breed and yet purports to tell "how it is." For example, he disposes of the central controversy about the future of the border collie in three inaccurate sentences: "The herding-dog world, I knew, was fiercely divided. The pet breeders believed that border collies could herd but still be great family companions. The herding camp was understandably terrified that the breed was about to be mass-marketed and cosseted out of existence, losing its ancient role and instincts." I've seen better statements of the issue in Dog Fancy.

 

To take another example, he says the show breeder from whom he got his border collies, whom he portrays as supremely knowledgeable, "thought some of the herding partisans were plain fanatics, breeding needlessly hostile, undomesticated dogs." This is an absurdity, and yet, since the book was published, I have noticed a number of border collie newcomers posting here -- as if it were a known and accepted fact -- that working border collies are bred without regard to temperament, that they are wild and aggressive, and that if you want a dog you can live with and who won't kill your cockatoo you must go to a show breeder. I'm sure that, thanks to Katz, this is widely believed now.

 

Another outrageous quote from the book: "My understanding was that Devon had been raised for obedience competition, had fallen short in some way and been replaced. This wasn't an uncommon fate in obedience show dogs, who aren't raised to be pets. When they fail--and they know when they fail--they have no real purpose." This is simply, flatly false. Obedience dogs are, almost without exception, raised as and treated as pets. If I were an obedience person I'd be appalled at such ignorance and disparagement. But since I'm a sheepdogger it's the herding section that truly appalled me. However, I see this is turning into a rant, so I think I'd better stop before I get into that.

[kajarrel]

The pet breeders believed that border collies could herd but still be great family companions. The herding camp was understandably terrified that the breed was about to be mass-marketed and cosseted out of existence, losing its ancient role and instincts."

This really is a dangerous misrepresentation, isn't it? In essence he's saying that the argument is over what you *do* with your dog rather than which criteria you use for breeding decisions.

 

Sadly, I don't think the latter issue crosses the "radar screen" of most people in the U.S. - for most people, the AKC is simply the organization from which you get "papers" for dogs. And this perception poses barriers to getting the word out: understanding why breeding for traits other than herding ability is deleterious to the breed requires, first, a degree of of interest and sophistication many people just don't have, and, second, research that I don't think most people are willing/able to undertake . . . It's so much easier to boil the issues down to ones that read well and entertain . . .

 

Ultimately, it doesn't surprise me that Mr. Katz would affiliate with the AKC or they with him. What better way to publicize your book or to promote your organization? It's win-win. I fear that selfish motives lie at the heart of many individuals who align themselves with this camp.

 

Kim

[Guest totallyterry2003]

Selfish motives like publishing the book to "cash" in when he really has very limited experience with the breed.

 

Am I to understand that he really has no herding experience in ISDS trials or farm work? I have never seen his name in open classes.

 

That is a book that goes on my Top 10 List NOT to read.

[blackacre]

"Know thine enemy." Maybe you should read it.

A.

[Eileen Stein]

No, Katz certainly has no experience in ISDS trials or farm work, but in all fairness, Jody said he wasn't giving herding lessons on his own, but was only assisting Carolyn Wilki. But then, Carolyn Wilki, though she markets herself as an all-breed herding instructor, also has no experience in ISDS trials, and Katz's overblown description of her prowess in his book ("Carolyn Wilki . . . is to herding what a kung fu master is to aspiring martial artists. . . . a dog mystic, a student of the canine psyche, a specialist in dog training and aggression, whispered about in obedience classes and on Web sites devoted to herding dogs. . . . If you and your dogs passed her qualifying test, the ancient, mythic world of herding was open to you.") may seem a little over the top to those of us who have never had occasion to whisper about her.

 

Also, in all fairness, Katz's book is not meant to be a treatise about border collies, but just an account of his joys and tribulations living with two border collies (one very difficult) and two labrador retrievers. If you didn't know anything about border collies, you'd almost certainly like it. But the more you know border collies, I think, the more you would feel the same exasperation toward it as you would toward a book written by a foreigner which purported, based on a week's visit as a tourist, to authoritatively describe and explain your country and its people, and which got a lot of it wrong.

[swampthing]

Operating on the "know thine enemy" premise, I read Katz's book about six months ago. It's a self absorbed monologue that stumbles as much as he stumbled with his own BC's. He takes a psychologically and emotionally damaged BC, a reject from a supposedly high powered un-named obedience competitor, and attempts to build a solid companion animal/human relationship with the dog. His two Labs die before he has fully established that relationship with the BC. Instead of going one on one for a while with the BC and strengthening the dog's psyche, he gets a BC pup from the same breeder. The first BC resents the puppy (surprise). At one point, Katz swats the older BC with a rolled up newspaper for being aggressive with the puppy. I quit reading on that page.