Finding a performance dog

[Carlasl]

Just mulling things around in my head and thought I would see what others opinions are on the subject.

 

I am fairly certain that Skye is never going to be truly happy as an agility dog, and that is fine with me, she is an awesome companion and we will continue to do things that she likes to do (like sleeping all day). She just in general doesn't like training, she feels too much pressure and I have always had a hard time finding a way to train her without her feeling pressure (I am beginning the CU stuff and am hoping that that helps her).

 

I am not really giving up on her, I am just backing off on my expectations, I am going to continue with her training but not put as much pressure on her as I have been (or as much pressure on myself to get results).

 

So that sort of leaves me in a place of want. I am perfectly happy to continue with Skye for the next couple of years learning more about agility and handling and all of that before I start seriously looking for another prospect. But I know that I want to seriously pursue Agility and I want a dog that LIVES for training and agility.

 

So I guess my question is this, do I go with a puppy or with another rescue

 

I went with a rescue group with Skye, she was 8-12mo old and they thought she would be a good agility prospect. I also didn't know much about raising a dog with agility in mind and would have done training differently if I knew what I did now. But really even in the beginning she was never really happy about learning any tricks or commands, it always seemed to stress her out (and I always used positive training methods and clicker training with her).

 

 

I would love to start with a pup from the ground up and do all the socializing and noise desensitizing (like the teeter) that you can miss out on with a rescue. I would love to be able to get a dog from a reputable working bc breeder. One that has drive but also an off switch, And honestly on one hand I would just really like to train a puppy again, I have rescued my last three dogs and haven't had a puppy since I was a kid. But I know even with the best breeding and selection that a pup can be a crap shoot and I could wind up with another dog that doesn't really love agility.

 

On the other hand I see the benefit of going with a semi adult dog (would like something under the age of two). That is absolutely showing that it has the temperament I am looking for and the drive for training and would do great at agility....But I worry about temperament and health issues of going with rescue again, and getting a dog that is noise phobic and soft.....I really don't want another soft dog, I actually seem to do better at training hard headed dogs than soft dogs. I also feel like I have a pretty tough list of requirements for a rescue dog to meet. On top of wanting a dog that will thrive as a performance dog, I have small children, a cat, and they would have to love to play with other dogs, as Skye LIVES to play with other dogs. I also frankly don't want to have to retrain or work with behavioral problems. After the initial settling in period I would want to be able to get to work on foundation training.

[Sue R]

I would suggest rescue as a first option - many fine dogs that have been fostered and evaluated can be found at reliable rescues.

 

You could get a pup from the "best bred" litter but, as we all know, pups are always a gamble to a degree. Since you seem amenable to a young adult dog, how about contacting local/regional rescue to see if they might have a suitable potential agility candidate?

 

Best wishes!

[stockdogranch]

I agree with Sue on a rescue. I think if you let your local rescues know that you want a fairly serious agility prospect, then can help you find the right dog. And really wait until they find just the dog you are looking for. The hard thing is to not just fall in love with the first one(s) you meet, but to wait until they really have the right dog,

A

[PSmitty]

^^ Ditto Anna. If you are patient, you can find just the right dog for you in rescue. I lucked into mine, but it took three times. And now I have the perfect dog for me. The only thing he's lacking is the stockwork, but I couldn't ask for a better agility and flyball partner.

 

PS. Of course I didn't give up on the previous two, but like you with Skye, I just had to realize their limitations and let them be themselves. We're all happier that way.

[juliepoudrier]

I think if you are up front with a rescue about exactly what your performance expectations are, they will work hard to find you just the right dog. Some dogs are fostered in homes that do agility, so it shouldn't be too hard to find one that has the appropriate drive as evaluated by someone who participates in the sport. The idea of getting a dog with a know personality and at an age ready to start training is very appealing.

 

J.

[MaggieDog]

My last two rescues were adopted with performance in mind. They were both older pups/young adolescents.

 

Ziva is now competing in agility and kicking butt in those shows we've gone to. Imagine a starters dog Q'ing and placing 4th in her height class in a USDAA Grand Prix Qualifier at her *2nd* trial - that's Z. She's everything I could want in an agility dog really. She was pulled into foster at my house at 5.5mo, adopted officially at 10mo. I chose her because she was already bomb proof, happy, not too soft but not too hard, had good toy drive, etc. I had preliminary hip xrays done at 6mo and they looked perfect according to the vet. I waited until 10mo to officially adopt so that I could delay her spay a bit.

 

Kestrel isn't even technically mine yet (still need to sign papers), but he's just completed his first puppy agility class and looks like he will be a challenging, tough as nails, FAST dog when he grows up. He came into my house as a foster at 4mo and I got the go ahead from DH to adopt him a few weeks back when he was 6.5mo. I took him to foster because he's a red heeler mix and that's a fav breed of mine, he stayed because he's a *tough* dog and I like a challenge (most of the time lol), he is unafraid in the majority of situations - even more bomb proof than Z is, and he's a red speckled male which was what I planned on adopting before Z fell into my lap lol. My instructor and fellow agility classmates/competitors LOVE his structure and I'm planning on getting him xrayed in a few months just to be sure.

 

I work for a shelter so it makes it really easy to pick out dogs I think might work and foster to see for sure, but I bet you could do something similar with a BC rescue - ask to foster with the idea that you're looking for a perfect fit. I do think it's very helpful to sit down and write out a "wish list" for your next dog. I did that before Z was in the picture and it really helped me evaluate her addition more objectively. She ended up having every trait I wanted except breed and gender. I didn't formally write out a wish list for a dog after Z, but I knew I wanted a harder dog and a male for sure, plus one that had the traits I liked in Z for performance and good structure to start with.

 

Rescue gives you way more options and variety ime.

[herdcentral]

My young BC was a return to her breeder, so I took her on at 5 months old. I discovered she too is also exceptionally soft, noise phobic etc and I also bought her for agility. She is such a sweet loving dog but also crumbled under pressure to do agility. Quite different to my pushy ACDS.

 

I persevered to find a way to train her and took all pressure off her to perform and tried to make training just one big game. She also grew to love her ball. She now looks forward to training as she gets to play ball and she will bark in excitement as we near the training grounds. She now unleashes awesome speed at training. We also do plenty of bush hiking and keep training short and fun and being such a smart dog she doesnt need constant drilling.

 

At trials I went out and treated it like a fun training run and didnt chase Qs. I also only trial her once a month. She still drops her speed back a notch at trials but she is really starting to gain confidence and in her last 2 trials gained both novice titles with some very nice confident runs going clear in 5 out of 6.

 

I doubt she is ever going to be the fastest, adicted to agility kind of dog but she is only 26 months old and her bond and confidence in me is growing all the time. I always avoid shows where I know there is going to be lots of noise and other activities going on and choose the more low key ones.

 

I have also started teaching her and my young ACD the Chris Bach attention game and she is really catching on to that one.

 

She used to lie down at the sight of a jump wheras now she will take off over them and she particularly has grown to love the contact stuff, and flashes through the weaves. I just started on the see saw now she has moved out of novice and she loves it and I struggle to keep her off it! wheras before it would have freaked her out.

 

It has been a real struggle compared my ACDS who are much more resilient dogs but I have really learnt a lot and my efforts are beginning to pay off.

 

I think that if I were to get another BC for agility I would try for a young rescue dog with the characteristics I was looking for. However I would also get the dog thoroughly vetted by a specialist vet especially one with orthopedic knowledge of structure required for performance dogs. I would also get hips and elbows checked.

[in2adventure]

I would continue to look into rescue. The group you got Skye from may not have known what to look for in sport dog. Both of mine are rescues. I adopted lucia at 8 months and Grady at 5 months. Lucia was NOT what someone looking for a sport dog would have chosen. But there was just something there when I went to look at her. She is still quiet and reserved and enjoys holding down the couch as much as going going hiking. With that being said, she got 4 first places and a 3rd (out of 11 dogs in her height class) at the NADAC trial over the weekend Grady is still in training, but will be my intense speed demon when he gains a little self control

 

Like others have said, just because you get a pup from a "high end" litter doesn't mean you'll get a good sport dog. Look at all the well bred BC's that end up in shelters because they aren't "good enough" to work sheep.

[SoloRiver]

I hope Jen Shipley sees this thread and responds to it. She has a rescued Border Collie who was not very enthusiastic about agility at first but became an agility machine. She would have a lot of good training tips.

[Sue R]

Just one other thought about rescue - I know of several reputable rescues here in the East that are located at or foster at homes that train and/or compete in agility. A rescue like that would surely be suitable to inquiry about a potential sports prospect and, importantly, a deserving dog looking for a loving and forever home.

 

You can contact me if you would like their contact info.

[Rave]

There are certainly pros and cons each way that you have to sit down and weigh for yourself. If I was looking for my next sports dog in rescue, I would first make sure the rescuer could actually recognize sports potential (i.e. ask for specifics as to why they think this dog would be a good sports dog, ask for videos if available); I've seen that be a hit or miss thing. I would also ask to have the dog's hips and elbows/shoulders x-rayed (at my expense). Then I would go work with the dog myself and take it to strange new areas to do so. I'd test for noise phobia, drive and willingness to work with me among other things. I'd make sure the dog fit my training personality, not too soft or too hard. If I had kids or cats, I'd want to see the dog interact with both. A dog ok with a 10 y.o. kid may not be with a 2 y.o. kid, and that's one area you cannot have problems. I know several people who get puppies just for this reason.

[Root Beer]

It's a tough decision. Having gone both ways - although I wasn't actually looking for a sports prospect when we got the one of our dogs who is from a breeder - there are definitely pros and cons to each scenario.

 

Regardless of where the dog comes from, every dog is different, and a dog who may seem like a great sports prospect on the surface might not turn out to be. And then the most unlikely dog of all can be a fantastic sport dog.

 

There is, of course, a lot to be said for giving a home to a dog in need.

 

And, there is something extremely special about raising a dog yourself right from the beginning.

 

Some rehomed dogs do come with baggage that can eventually render the dog unsuitable for sports and sometimes those things don't show through at the time of adoption.

 

And some dogs that are raised by one person from puppyhood completely wash out as sport dogs for various and sundry reasons that you cannot know at the age of 2 months (temperament, physical factors, lack of drive/desire, etc.)

 

There are risks and benefits to each option.

 

In the future, I plan to do both - continue to adopt rescues to train and hopefully compete with, and purchase a puppy here and there to raise, train, and hopefully compete with. My plan is to assess our personal situation whenever the time comes to add a dog and take the whole picture into account. Which (puppy or adolescent) would fit in better with my group of dogs at the moment? As long as Speedy is with us I would never consider a puppy. Can I get someone to come for a few months and give a puppy potty breaks while I'm at work during the day? Who is in rescue at the moment? When we adopted Dean I very much wanted to rescue and even though he did not turn out to be the sport dog I had hoped he would be, I don't regret our decision at all because he was absolutely the right dog for us at the time.

 

I know that's not really helpful, but I guess I would advise that you continue to consider both possibilities until the time comes to decide. It may happen that between now and then the answer will really come clear for you.

[jenkshipley]

So I guess my question is this, do I go with a puppy or with another rescue

 

What a great topic!!!

 

I think I can speak from very personal experience when I say that trying to find a dog who is a "sure thing" for agility is sort of like trying to figure out how to pick the winning PowerBall ticket numbers when the lottery gets up to $200 million. There are many factors that go into how successful a team of dog and person is in agility. I firmly believe that it takes the right dog to be really successful, but I also think the "right" dog for one person may not be the "right" dog for the next.

 

Choosing a puppy, no matter where you get that puppy, is a roll of the dice. There are some very nice things that go along with raising a puppy including the ability to shape it's learning skills, socialization, foundation training, and more. However, again speaking from personal experience here, none of that insures that your dog will grow up with the right temperament, drive level, structure or health to compete seriously in agility. Also, there is a widespread belief that I have heard time and again from many agility people that you can't get the same bond or relationship with a rescued or older dog then you can with a puppy. This is just not true.

 

There is nothing wrong with buying a puppy. BE VERY CAREFUL in researching both the breeder you are considering and the lines of the parents. MEET BOTH PARENTS and relatives of the parents if you can. ASK TO BE PUT IN CONTACT WITH OWNERS OF PUPPIES FROM PREVIOUS LITTERS of either parent if there have been previous litters and try to meet some previous progeny. REVIEW the contract and the responsibility that the breeder will take in the event of an issue very carefully before buying the pup. Most importantly, don't buy a puppy unless you will be happy owning the dog as an adult if it turns out that the dog will not make a good agility dog.

 

Better yet, considering a rescue, shelter dog or older pup is a great way to find the right kind of dog. Put the word out that you are looking to friends, people at the club where you train, and let any instructors you know or work with know that you are looking. I recently found myself in need of a new agility prospect when my 3 year old Border Collie had to retire from any competition or training in agility due to health reasons. I told everyone I know about the fact that I was looking. I now have an exceptionally nice, six month old bitch that I am keeping contingent on acceptable x-rays which will happen this Friday. The pup was being returned to it's breeder for "fear aggression" with other dogs. The owners had been told by a behaviorist and a well known herding person that the puppy had behavior issues that might be genetic.

 

A friend who knows me and my experience level with working with dogs told me about the pup and thought I should consider trying her out. I worked out conditions with the breeder and picked her up expecting a puppy who would need significant work if it would even be a dog I would consider keeping for myself at all. What I received was a perfectly normal, playful, interactive, confident, social and focused puppy. She has met many dogs in many different settings in the weeks that I have had her here and has shown no sign of aggression issues of any type, settled in instantly with my pack and is exactly what I want to see in a young prospect for agility. She is also old enough for me to have her PennHipped and have her elbows, shoulders and knees checked to make sure there are no structural issues.

 

A lot of people at shelters or involved in rescue who have never competed in agility might consider different things or qualities as indications that a Border Collie will make a great agility dog. Some of those things are exactly the opposite of what actually might be good qualities. A basic list of things I generally see in a foster dog that means to me that it will make a great sports prospect is: focus and willingness to work for a person, positive and motivated introduction to a clicker, confidence and a relaxed demeanor in new places, situations, and around new people and dogs, food motivation, toy drive and interest, the ability to play with toys in the presence of other dogs instead of focusing on herding the dogs, balance in structure and interest in working on basic shaping skills and basic equipment introduction.

 

If you are going to consider an adult from a shelter or rescue, asking the people involved with the dog to try out some of these things or preferably spending some quality time with the dog yourself and working on some of these basics is really important before deciding on adopting if you are looking specifically for a dog that will succeed in agility. Another potential avenue is to apply to foster for a local Border Collie rescue and to let them know that you are potentially looking for a dog to adopt for agility but are also interested in fostering. The rescue, if willing, can send you young dogs that might be a good fit, you can foster the dogs, provide some great initial training to the dogs while you determine if they might be a good fit for you, provide the dog with a foster home until it finds a permanent home if it is not and help out a rescue by allowing them to help additional dogs at the same time.

 

Best,

Jen

[agilityrunningdogs]

Be sure that if you decide to go with a rescue, you let them know exactly what you want. Many people, out of ignorance, assume that just because the dog is fast and can jump high it can be an agility champion. Tell them that you want a dog that's biddible and focused and not out totally of control (a little wild side is good though). They may try to push the crazy psychonaut dog on you just because they think that's what you want. Be sure not to let anybody force you into a dog because they think it will make an agility star.

[jenkshipley]

I hope Jen Shipley sees this thread and responds to it. She has a rescued Border Collie who was not very enthusiastic about agility at first but became an agility machine. She would have a lot of good training tips.

 

 

Hi Carlas,

 

Where do you live?

 

Hi Melanie.

 

There are SO many ways to build drive, confidence and enthusiasm for agility in a dog. If your dog is not fearful or aggressive in new situations or in a class or trial situation, and does not have temperament issues then trust me, you can build enjoyment for the sport. You can take an uninterested dog and create an enthusiastic and successful dog.

 

For a start.

 

A. Revamp your clicker training. Start over. Forget your original intentions or expectations and forget your dog's original response. Spend a month or two ( depending on the response by your dog ) not training specific skills with the clicker. Don't ask your dog for a behavior before clicking and rewarding. Instead, simply choose things your dog is already doing, when she does them and click and reward them. Carry a yummy tasting treat (my dogs really, really like very well cooked and chopped up liver. It is a bit smelly when you microwave it but you can cook until it is basically dry to the touch, cut it up in very small pieces and offer a very tasty reward) with you at all times and buy a clicker with a strap so you can hang it on your wrist. Pick a couple of behaviors you dog does on it's own, lying down, sitting, looking at you, bringing you a toy, picking up a toy, going to lie down on a favorite bed, etc. Every time the dog does one of the behaviors you have chosen on its own, click and reward. Your dog will catch on that things it does on its own cause you to mark the behavior and reward the dog. This is a great confidence builder and worked wonders with my youngest who literally shut down and refused to interact as a puppy if I so much as thought of trying to shape behavior. If you are clicking something like lie down and your dog comes up to you and lies down because it realizes that you will click and treat her, click and treat and then move a bit away from the dog. Make sure not to ask the dog for the behavior or ask the dog to come to you. If she gets up, comes over and lies down again, click and treat and move away. If she repeatedly follows you offering the behavior, you can then start asking for behavior verbally as she is performing it. It doesn't matter if the dog already knows a verbal cue for the behavior. What matters is you have built enthusiasm for offering a behavior in order to receive a click and a reward, after a session or two of saying the verbal as the dog performs the behavior, you can start asking for the behavior with the verbal cue before the dog has offered it. Once the dog is offering the few behaviors you have chosen eagerly on a verbal cue, you can start introducing new behaviors. Start simple. I usually teach a nose to the hand and a foot touch on a target first to every dog I introduce clicker training too. As you introduce new behaviors, make sure to click and reward any movement on your dogs part toward performing that behavior. Don't wait for you dog to perform it correctly, shape what you want by rewarding any movement toward the behavior. There are some good clicker training books and DVD's out there. The trick to shaping a dog who is not super operant or confident is to make sure you are rewarding even the tiniest increments. This builds confidence and enthusiasm and teaches your dog that a reward is within easy reach.

 

B. Use your dog's favorite toy in training.

C. Build tug drive.

D. Train in baby steps and make sure your dog is rewarded a lot in each session.

E. Keep training sessions very short.

F. Be patient and do not under any circumstances correct your dog. If the dog doesn't perform something correctly, position the dog, yourself, the obstacle whatever in a way that insures success for the very next attempt. Slowly build away from that success in tiny increments until you reach the orginal position, location, attempt and the dog can perform it correctly.

 

With a dog who is naturally operant and enthusiastic, a bit of allowing the dog to figure things out is good. With a dog who is not confident or not operant, setting them up and allowing them to fail simply crushes drive.

 

Best,

Jen

[MrRipley]

Personally, if I were you I would try rescue again. I tried and returned 2 rescue dogs this year before I found Ripley and Rip is exactly what I was looking for. I do agility also. Of course there are no guarantees he's going to be a champion but the building blocks are in place -- he's got the right personality and drive for me. I was very lucky to find him.

 

Granted, most people I know who raise agility dogs from puppyhood do very well, but there can still be obstacles. You'll have a better idea of what you're getting with a slightly older dog. Take your time and don't keep any dog that doesn't feel right. I felt absolutely awful for returning 2 dogs to 2 different rescues and was extremely hard on myself for making the decision, but I knew it was the right thing to do, for them and for me.

 

And now it seems to be working out

 

And Jen gives excellent advice, which I can personally attest to

[Lenajo]

Since the specific type of dog (temperament and drive) is so important to you I could not recommend a puppy from any source. You need a young adult dog that is *already showing* exactly what you want. No "mights, ifs, or "with times" or "after they grow up"" prospects should be considered.

 

A word of warning: A very good trainer told me once "if you give up on this dogs training problem, you will just get the same in the next dog". The implication (and unfortunately sometimes the truth) being that most training problems are human related if not totally human sourced. This is very much true in agility as how much fun, and how easy, it is for a normal healthy dog is about how the human presents it.

 

A harder dog may tolerate your more forceful training better, but it will still cause you problems in the long run. Learning to adapt and bring the best out of the dog you have will only help that next dog more.

[Sue R]

Since the specific type of dog (temperament and drive) is so important to you I could not recommend a puppy from any source. You need a young adult dog that is *already showing* exactly what you want. No "mights, ifs, or "with times" or "after they grow up"" prospects should be considered.

 

A word of warning: A very good trainer told me once "if you give up on this dogs training problem, you will just get the same in the next dog". The implication (and unfortunately sometimes the truth) being that most training problems are human related if not totally human sourced. This is very much true in agility as how much fun, and how easy, it is for a normal healthy dog is about how the human presents it.

 

A harder dog may tolerate your more forceful training better, but it will still cause you problems in the long run. Learning to adapt and bring the best out of the dog you have will only help that next dog more.

I think this is a great reminder to all of us, no matter what we are planning on doing with a dog - performance sports, stockwork, companionship. And, good reason why, if someone is getting a pup for a purpose, they need to familiarize themselves with the parents and other background on the pup.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

The nice thing in working with a reputable rescue is that you can tell then exactly what you want and they will look for a dog that will suit your needs. You won't get a puppy since that is a crap shoot but you more than likely will get a yearling or so that meets your criteria.

 

I suggest finding a good rescue in your area.

 

Diane~

[Carlasl]

First I wanted to say thank you to everyone for a great thread. I have a ton of stuff to think about.

 

Then I wanted to respond what Lenajo said that I quoted.

A word of warning: A very good trainer told me once "if you give up on this dogs training problem, you will just get the same in the next dog". The implication (and unfortunately sometimes the truth) being that most training problems are human related if not totally human sourced. This is very much true in agility as how much fun, and how easy, it is for a normal healthy dog is about how the human presents it.

 

This is a HUGE HUGE deal to me, I totally agree with what that trainer said and this is why I am absolutely not giving up on Skye or myself for that matter, because it is not really a dog problem, but a training problem.

 

I want to be successful with Skye, not from a performance standard but more from the approach of, are we BOTH having fun. I think it will only make me a better trainer if I am able to succeed in making training, and hopefully agility fun for Skye.

 

I will most likely go the route of fostering in hopes of finding an agility prospect, I have been talking to my husband about fostering anyway, and this way I get to see a lot of dogs and figure out exactly what I am looking for. I really am not going to start looking seriously for at least a year or two, I really do want to focus on Skye and how I can be a better trainer for her. I have always planned on having more than one dog, so I was just wondering what direction I should be looking because if we were going the puppy route I wanted to start looking at breeders now and perhaps talk to someone who was planning a litter in a couple years. But I really do think that rescue may be the way to go. I am certainly not opposed to going out of state to find a dog either (I am in KC Missouri).

 

Here is my knuckle head (not sure why it looks like she has an underbite):

 

[Freeman 101]

I don't think I can add to the great advice, but I do want to share my experience with my BC.

 

He is a rescue and was about 13 weeks when I got him. No one would have ever chosen him for an agility prospect. On the surface he appears shy, soft, sound sensitive, and he has many quirks. However, in a work setting he completely changes. Something inside of him turns on and he becomes all business. Mr. shy-boy turns off while Mr. Super Fly goes into action. I'm not sure how anyone would have ever picked up on this by testing pups in a litter.

[Pat W.]

All of both my and my daughters current and future agility partners have come from rescue. Whim came in as a puppy at about 12 wks old and has very high drive and great work ethic, Meg came in at about 16 weeks, is medium drive and a great agility partner for my daughter who started handling her at 10yrs old (my daughter that is) and her future partner Why? is a softie but has good potential we'll have to see how he blooms as time goes on.