More Detailed Update on Pan

[pansmom]

I typed up a summary here in the other thread, but Dr. Haug sent me a loooooong Word document in email and I thought I'd post part of it here in case y'all are interested in reading Dr. Haug's transcript of the appointment and her diagnosis...

 

Behavior Observations

 

Pan was alert and somewhat nervous when they arrived. She did run around the room some and shortly after arrival, had several barking outbursts in response to noises outside the room. These were rapid mid-pitch barks accompanied by elevated ears and tail. She would frequently turn and bark at me or the owner after she got started. These outbursts made Mary notably nervous. Mary would stand up and verbally correct Pan. Pan sometimes stopped barking but often resumed within a few seconds. I then told Mary to tether Pan to the corner so Mary did not have to worry about Pan redirecting on her during an outburst. Pan still had some of these bouts of "angry" barking and would then bark directly at us. We ignored her but I did toss her treats whenever she settled on the floor. She typically tried to lie down as close to Mary as the leash would allow although occasionally she would just lie on the rug near where she was tethered.

 

After reviewing the history, I approached and handed Pan some treats. She took these relatively calmly. I then handed her some treats as I started to gently loop the long hospital leash over her head. She was ok as the leash approached, but when it slipped just past her ears, she froze, snarled and then lunged up at me. I lifted the leash up to abort her and she stared at me showing her teeth for 2 full seconds. She then relaxed a little and I dropped some treats on the floor. The leash was still caught on one ear but eventually slid down into position. I stepped back and asked Mary to unhook Pan's tether leash. Pan followed me out of the room willingly but then became nervous. The longer she was out of the room the more anxious she became. She walked with me and got on the scale with some coaxing and prompting with the leash.

 

Once back in the room, she began panting and rushed over to Mary and laid on the floor. After a while we put her back on the tether because she still had occasional bouts of agitated barking. We discussed some training exercises and then began to practice some leash counterconditioning with Pan. Pan generally ducked her head, pinned her ears back and licked her lips whenever Mary put the leash on and off. I brought down a stuffed dog for Mary to practice with first. Pan looked at it and then erupted barking and snarling at it. She alternated her focus from the dog toy to me and would at times advance to me as though she would bite me but she never tried to advance and bite at the toy. She mostly stayed beside Mary but would suddenly intensify her aggression and I feel there was a good potential for her to have come up and bitten my leg if I had not moved the toy between us. During one of her breaks in barking, I tossed the toy into the corner of the room. She went up and sniffed it and then did not react to it again. Once we actually got started on the training task, Mary and Pan both did well with this demonstration and Pan had no problems with the exercise.

 

After returning Pan to her tether, I brought in some water for her. Mary practiced asking Pan to back away and then hold the sit while she set the bowl down on the ground. Pan would sometimes start to get up and Mary would abort putting the bowl down. About 2 minutes into this task, Pan snarled slightly at Mary and I had her abort the task entirely. She sat back down and we offered the water again a few minutes later. This time Mary asked Pan to back further away and she was successful in having Pan sit calmly while she put the water bowl on the ground and then released Pan to drink from it.

 

Diagnoses

 

1. Fear Aggression

a. People

b. Dogs

2. Redirected Aggression

3. Resource Guarding To Humans

4. Sound reactivity

 

Pan has always been a shy dog in relation to people and dogs. She is also sound reactive. Pan likely has an inherited tendency to have a low trigger threshold. There were some red flags regarding her behavior including the fact that she was not participating in the group activity with the rest of the litter. Also she was weaned and taken from her littermates and mother much too young. There has also been a steep learning curve because she is your first dog. This is not a dog we wish on anyone, but especially someone that has never owned and trained a dog before. (You have done an admirable job considering all this!)

 

As you have learned, the confrontational approach is an abysmal failure for many dogs. When it comes to pitting yourself against a specialized set of carnivore teeth, the human will always "lose". (The dog usually does too in some way.) Pan is very intelligent. But she is highly reinforced for environmental control (not surprising) and she has a low fuse for handling her fear and frustration. When she gets agitated she directs the aggression on whatever happens to be closest or the "easiest" target -- that is often you. Pan has learned that humans are "easy" targets. Notice during the consult that she never did actually try to bite the stuffed toy that scared her and she showed much more inclination to actually try to bite me instead. This is a hard and risky consequence contingency to try to reverse. It means we must 1) manage her exposures to triggers carefully (as you are already trying to do) and 2) find ways to reduce the risk of her actually inflicting injury if she erupts (i.e. the use of muzzles and the Gentle Leader).

 

The safety and integrity of your relationship with her has to be improved before we can work more specifically on outside triggers. Pan is going to be a long term challenging task. At this point in time, I cannot make any recommendations as to whether she will ever be even remotely safe to have in a home with children. Fortunately this will not be an issue for you for a couple of years. We will give Pan a good year of work and see where she is at that point.

 

One of the most important aspects of a successful behavior modification program is managing thresholds. Your dog's threshold is the point at which your dog begins to show a reaction to a problematic stimulus, or the point at which the environment is so distracting that your dog is unable to respond promptly to a previously trained behavior cue (e.g. "sit").

 

The goal of a well designed behavior modification program is to keep your dog below threshold at all times. By doing this, we minimize the amount of reinforcement the dog obtains for performing the undesirable behavior. We also lessen the likelihood that your animal or another individual will be injured (in cases of aggression).

 

Even many competent trainers approach resolution of a problem by purposely exposing the dog to triggers and putting the dog over threshold in order to then punish the inappropriate behavior or try to teach the dog an alternative response. This is analogous to trying to fix a leaking roof during a hurricane - it's far from ideal and fraught with potential dangers and complications. This approach is unfair to your dog because it sets the dog up to fail. It also is frustrating and demoralizing for you and potentially dangerous to other people and animals that may be involved.

 

We all understand that the more you practice a skill, the more proficient you become. This applies to animals as well and equally to desirable and undesirable behavior. By keeping your dog under threshold during all training sessions (and in between them!), you allow the dog to practice only calm controlled behavior. You allow the dog to be successful. This approach also helps you learn to remain calm around the dog because YOU are not anticipating a problem arising. Some owners and trainers feel that avoidance is not real behavior work or it is somehow "cheating" and avoiding the problem. If I find that sticking my finger in an electrical outlet produces an undesirable consequence (I get shocked), then you would think I'm pretty dim-witted if I kept sticking my finger in them. Sometimes changing the environmental cues/stimuli can have the most dramatic effects on your animal's behavior and therefore your success.

 

It may seem paradoxical, but Pan's threshold will shrink (i.e. Pan will become more calm and controllable around trigger stimuli) in the course of you keeping Pan below threshold. This increase in relaxation then allows us to gradually and methodically push Pan to the threshold point resulting in a gradual elevation of your dog's threshold and the dog's tolerance.

 

How do you know your dog is over threshold? Watch Pan's body language. Signs that your dog is over threshold:

1. Acting distracted, unfocused or Pan is unable to respond to your behavior cues (e.g. name orientation, sit, etc.)

2. Looking anxious or scared: turning ears backward, lowering the head, tucking tail, blowing air through the corners of the lips, shaking, yawning, etc.

3. The dog is excitable: jumping up and down, pulling in leash, panting in cool weather, whining, spinning on the leash, etc.

4. Piloerection (hackles/hair standing up on back)

5. Growling, barking or lunging (at this point your dog is WAY over threshold!)

 

If your dog exhibits any of these behaviors, then you should immediately change the situation in some way, even if that means leaving, to construct a situation where the dog can come back below threshold.

 

She also gave me a bunch of behavior modification recommendations and a schedule and stuff, and today is Pan's second day on Prozac. It's really too much to post here. We have our work cut out for us for like a year at least.

 

But again I cannot say enough how important it is, one, that you take fear aggressive dogs to BCVBs (or even fearful puppies, before they hit social maturity and become aggressive, so you address the fear before aggression ever becomes an issue); two, that you don't take your puppies home until 8 weeks; three, that you don't take the puppy off by itself (aww), and four, that you wait until 3 months after estrus ends to spay. It's not often that these things cause problems but when they do, especially with dogs who have temperaments like Pan, the problems can be truly heartbreaking. And these are such easy things to do right. For example we're so mad at our original vet for letting us spay her too soon. It's a sign of not keeping up on current research. We're not going back there.

 

Anyway, we have a very long road ahead of us but we're going to try, and try hard. I started working with Pan on the Gentle Leader (desensitizing/countercon to putting it on her - got her to the point where she was putting it on herself for the treat) today and on making sit and down more reflexive. Dr. Haug says other things are actually more important than the Protocol for Relaxation right now, so we're doing those first (PACE protocol, sit/down reps, desens to leash on/off, etc). And Dr. Haug says if none of the SSRIs work, the medication of last resort will in fact be progestin.

[Northof49]

I typed up a summary here in the other thread, but Dr. Haug sent me a loooooong Word document in email and I thought I'd post part of it here in case y'all are interested in reading Dr. Haug's transcript of the appointment and her diagnosis...

 

As you have learned, the confrontational approach is an abysmal failure for many dogs. When it comes to pitting yourself against a specialized set of carnivore teeth, the human will always "lose". (The dog usually does too in some way.) Pan is very intelligent. But she is highly reinforced for environmental control (not surprising) and she has a low fuse for handling her fear and frustration. When she gets agitated she directs the aggression on whatever happens to be closest or the "easiest" target -- that is often you. Pan has learned that humans are "easy" targets. Notice during the consult that she never did actually try to bite the stuffed toy that scared her and she showed much more inclination to actually try to bite me instead. This is a hard and risky consequence contingency to try to reverse. It means we must 1) manage her exposures to triggers carefully (as you are already trying to do) and 2) find ways to reduce the risk of her actually inflicting injury if she erupts (i.e. the use of muzzles and the Gentle Leader).

 

The safety and integrity of your relationship with her has to be improved before we can work more specifically on outside triggers. Pan is going to be a long term challenging task. At this point in time, I cannot make any recommendations as to whether she will ever be even remotely safe to have in a home with children. Fortunately this will not be an issue for you for a couple of years. We will give Pan a good year of work and see where she is at that point.

 

One of the most important aspects of a successful behavior modification program is managing thresholds. Your dog's threshold is the point at which your dog begins to show a reaction to a problematic stimulus, or the point at which the environment is so distracting that your dog is unable to respond promptly to a previously trained behavior cue (e.g. "sit").

 

The goal of a well designed behavior modification program is to keep your dog below threshold at all times. By doing this, we minimize the amount of reinforcement the dog obtains for performing the undesirable behavior. We also lessen the likelihood that your animal or another individual will be injured (in cases of aggression).

 

Even many competent trainers approach resolution of a problem by purposely exposing the dog to triggers and putting the dog over threshold in order to then punish the inappropriate behavior or try to teach the dog an alternative response. This is analogous to trying to fix a leaking roof during a hurricane - it's far from ideal and fraught with potential dangers and complications. This approach is unfair to your dog because it sets the dog up to fail. It also is frustrating and demoralizing for you and potentially dangerous to other people and animals that may be involved.

 

But again I cannot say enough how important it is, one, that you take fear aggressive dogs to BCVBs (or even fearful puppies, before they hit social maturity and become aggressive, so you address the fear before aggression ever becomes an issue); two, that you don't take your puppies home until 8 weeks; three, that you don't take the puppy off by itself (aww), and four, that you wait until 3 months after estrus ends to spay. It's not often that these things cause problems but when they do, especially with dogs who have temperaments like Pan, the problems can be truly heartbreaking. And these are such easy things to do right. For example we're so mad at our original vet for letting us spay her too soon. It's a sign of not keeping up on current research. We're not going back there.

 

Anyway, we have a very long road ahead of us but we're going to try, and try hard. I started working with Pan on the Gentle Leader (desensitizing/countercon to putting it on her - got her to the point where she was putting it on herself for the treat) today and on making sit and down more reflexive. Dr. Haug says other things are actually more important than the Protocol for Relaxation right now, so we're doing those first (PACE protocol, sit/down reps, desens to leash on/off, etc). And Dr. Haug says if none of the SSRIs work, the medication of last resort will in fact be progestin.

 

COngratulations on going to Dr. Haug. She is awesome. I have stresed over and over again that punishment and confrontational approach to behaviour modification is not the way to go, and hopefully those that use and promate that type of traning will read Dr. Haug's report and change their approach.

 

I hope you will keep us updated on a regular basis on how things are going - you will have your good days and not so good days - that's just the way it goes, and why it is important to keep a journal. You know the old saying - two steps rorward and one step back, but with lots of hard work those days will become further and further apart. Good luck to you and Pan. She is very lucky to have such a dedicated and caring person in her life.

[pansmom]

COngratulations on going to Dr. Haug. She is awesome. I have stresed over and over again that punishment and confrontational approach to behaviour modification is not the way to go, and hopefully those that use and promate that type of traning will read Dr. Haug's report and change their approach.

 

I hope you will keep us updated on a regular basis on how things are going - you will have your good days and not so good days - that's just the way it goes, and why it is important to keep a journal. You know the old saying - two steps rorward and one step back, but with lots of hard work those days will become further and further apart. Good luck to you and Pan. She is very lucky to have such a dedicated and caring person in her life.

 

Dr. Haug really is great. I was very impressed with her. She even helped us find a boarder in Houston (out of where we are flying for our trip) who has facilities that do not require handling the dogs and so has agreed to keep Pan while we are gone. Out of all the options we had for keeping her, Dr. Haug thought this place was best considering Pan's history because she wouldn't have to be handled at all. Especially since Pan is so attached to me and gets so nervous when I'm gone in unfamiliar surroundings. I wish she was better so that we could just put in a doggie door and have people care for her in our home but that just ain't Pan. However, the rooms in this place have doggie doors with runs, are climate controlled, and have music playing 24/7 so hopefully Pan should be able to relax at least somewhat! (She does like music... likes to dance with me actually... the good old days... haha.)

 

She snapped at my husband last night (for the first time in almost two months - she barely missed his hand) but (1) it wasn't really that bad, it was more a warning than a true bite attempt and (2) she was on a tether so he was able basically to pull his hand away and not react. We told Dr. Haug about it and she said it probably wasn't the Prozac but was, more likely, the fact that he was reaching into her area whilst "hovering over her" in the chair in the dark with the two cats nearby. (Like I told Dr. Haug, I know our dog, and I totally wouldn't have tried to pet her in that situation.) Another thing Dr. Haug mentioned might've contributed to Pan's threshold lowering is the fact that the day before she had an eight hour car ride. She was nervous, so she snapped at him. Also, he is just not nurturing like me so I think she's more scared of him than me. Anyway we told Dr. Haug and she told him not to pet her except in training situations anymore. And that she just can't be treated like a regular dog, especially not now, that we are having to reeducate her about so much. And every interaction is a learning experience. And so on.

 

Oh and not only does she let me put the leash on well now, but she has been doing really well the past two days on our walks - today I tried a bike ride and she did not leash bite at all except in the beginning once - all I did was tell her to drop it, wait three seconds, say it again, and then when she did praised her. Then a few minutes later I watched her making a choice: should I or shouldn't I leash bite; she went for it, but decided against it at the last minute and I praised the HECK out of her. After that she stopped completely for the rest of the ride/walk (I wanted to let her run some for the exercise since she's slightly overweight according to Dr. Haug and also I wanted to stop and walk with her some so she could take our time and explore). Now that I am not giving her any negative attention (only taking attention away to IMPLY negative) she is much more focused on me during our walk, more than the environment, and so she and I both enjoy the walks/rides more. Oh and of course she is much more calm stopping and starting. Since she doesn't get anything (including starting, or doors opening, or anything), unless she is calm, attentive, polite, and not invading my space.

 

I'm also working on desens to the Gentle Leader like I said, and have a greyhound muzzle in the mail...

 

The biggest negative thing so far is an incident with a mat Dr. Haug wanted me to put in her tether area in the kitchen... she tried to guard it (even though I had anticipated this problem and tethered her out of range of it). Email out to find out how to proceed.

 

AND NOW, CAN I GET SOME BOARD MOJO... FOR MYSELF, THAT I MIGHT SURVIVE THE NEIGHBORHOOD BARK HOUR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!? (NOTE: Just to be clear, I am kidding. I am not really concerned for my safety. I just hate not being able to tell Pan to hush!)

[sweet_ceana]

Lots of board mojo from AZ. It sounds like you are off to a great start. I can almost hear your increased confidence in what you have written.

 

I have a dog that was a loner pup, and was/is fear aggressive as well. (I don't believe it ever truly goes away) It can be so hard, but when you see how much the things that you do help, success makes the hard work worth it. Good luck and remember to focus on the positive. You can even write mile stones down so that when you hit a rough patch you can go back and read about your success. Writing down accomplishments kept me from getting stuck in a rut with setbacks.

[Fiacha7j]

Lots of mojo from UT, and lots of respect for all you've done and are doing w/ Pan.

[Eileen Stein]

I have stresed over and over again that punishment and confrontational approach to behaviour modification is not the way to go, and hopefully those that use and promate that type of traning will read Dr. Haug's report and change their approach.

 

I would be surprised if any experienced dog trainers would change their approach just because they read a behaviorist's report. But I think a first time dog owner has to decide on an approach and give it her all, and I hope this particular approach works out great for pansmom and Pan.

[powerfulgazelle]

Wow, thanks for posting that. Mojo coming from OH.

[mbc1963]

Reading that report was like reading a summary of what I've learned from working with my fearful and reactive dog for four years. The most important concept, for me, is thresholds. At first, I would regularly put my dog into situations that set him off, because I simply didn't know what caused his reactivity. Once I learned to walk under his threshold whenever possible, things got so much easier. Lucky for me, I didn't have the biting issue - he'd growl at humans, but try to run away if possible.

 

Good luck!

 

Mary

[Root Beer]

Reading that report was like reading a summary of what I've learned from working with my fearful and reactive dog for four years. The most important concept, for me, is thresholds. At first, I would regularly put my dog into situations that set him off, because I simply didn't know what caused his reactivity. Once I learned to walk under his threshold whenever possible, things got so much easier. Lucky for me, I didn't have the biting issue - he'd growl at humans, but try to run away if possible.

 

Same here.

 

It may seem paradoxical, but Pan's threshold will shrink (i.e. Pan will become more calm and controllable around trigger stimuli) in the course of you keeping Pan below threshold. This increase in relaxation then allows us to gradually and methodically push Pan to the threshold point resulting in a gradual elevation of your dog's threshold and the dog's tolerance.

 

I've found this to be very true, and thinking back, the biggest mistake I made along the way - especially back at the beginning - with my fearful/formerly reactive dog was a tendency to push him toward threshold too soon. It took a while for me to learn that the fact that I saw progress was not necessarily an indicator that the dog was ready for more and more and more right away.

 

I really did find that a very gradual move toward threshold worked wonders over time. It really does seem paradoxical in a way, but I've seen it happen more than once.

 

Best to you and Pan!!

[pansmom]

OK so either the fluoxetine or the tethering / behavioral mod (ignoring barking and growling), or both (most likely), is doing something, because she is "talking" and whining in the morning now instead of barking. Also, last night, she was definitely engaging in obsessive behaviors less. Even my husband has noticed SOMETHING is different. She lies down and sleeps a lot and lets things roll off her back a bit more, especially sounds. And I think it's the PACE-training (not acknowledging her or giving her anything - even walking out of a door - until she is polite/attentive/calm and out of my personal space) that is helping teach her to be far more polite and self-controlled.

 

ETA: I swear Nyxie is insane though (see pic below, she is only like 8 pounds, but she's Pan's age exactly, 1 year 3 months, and we got her when she was about five or six months old so she has kind of grown up with Pan). She likes to sit INSIDE Pan's tether area on a stool (also pictured below, not at window as pictured but at the bar in the kitchen) and play with her by batting at her as she passes below. Like she'll let Pan play with her a little bit from below the stool, then she'll slap her off and meow, then Pan will leave her be (especially if I say leave it), then Pan will chew her nylabone, then in five minutes see Nyxie and want to play, lather, rinse, repeat, ad nauseum. CRAZY CAT! NO FEAR AT ALL!

[pansmom]

I would be surprised if any experienced dog trainers would change their approach just because they read a behaviorist's report. But I think a first time dog owner has to decide on an approach and give it her all, and I hope this particular approach works out great for pansmom and Pan.

 

Couldn't it be possible that different approaches work best for different dogs? What Dr. Haug said was that "the confrontational approach is an abysmal failure for many dogs." That is unquestionably true for Pan. However, some dogs might respond well to a simple "No" and I tell you what that approach is much easier! I know I'm just a first-time dog owner, but what I would say is, if you do use the confrontational approach, just watch out for signs of nervousness in the dog (ears back, lip-licking, wall-eye, shaking, all the things Dr Haug listed), and if you're seeing them and the dog isn't responding, instead of upping the confrontation and using force, try the nonconfrontational approach. Each child has to be raised slightly differently, right? Why wouldn't the same thing be true of dogs? Pan is an anomale, she is not your regular dog, but the nonconfrontational approach is the only thing that works... for her. If I had never tried any force-based methods with her, ten to one she would never have gone through that period where she growled in her sleep and started up from nightmares barking and so forth. She sure doesn't have that problem anymore.

[bcnewe2]

I know I'm just a first-time dog owner, but what I would say is, if you do use the confrontational approach, just watch out for signs of nervousness in the dog (ears back, lip-licking, wall-eye, shaking, all the things Dr Haug listed), and if you're seeing them and the dog isn't responding, instead of upping the confrontation and using force, try the nonconfrontational approach

 

I think calling a correction based training method a confrontational approach is way off. We don't go around beating dogs, I teach a dog how to understand a correction then when I do have to correct there are no mixed messages.

I think you are doing wonderful, if you are able to follow Dr. Haugs protocal things should start to fall in place. But Pan is not a reg. dog. Was she born like that or maybe a few cards short and the methods that you started out with didn't help so she learned some bad behavoirs.

I am never mad at my dogs, Or I try not to be and if I am, I try to fake my way though a correction, with the idea of they don't understand me and they are not doing anything to piss me off. Not always easy to do even with experience.

 

I was working with a couple and their unruly dog last weekend. THe dog was totally blowing off the owners (new to dogs). I had no reason to be mad, within a short time she knew exactly what a correction was and what was expected of her. If the new owners can reproduce what I did, they will have a great dog very quickly. While training the humans on what to do, the husband mentioned that he gets very upset or aggravated that the dog misbehaves, so his corrections were filled with anger. The dog was mirroring right back to him what he was showing the dog.

 

Long short of it.....correction based training is not confrontational training. Infact, I have no idea what confrontationl training is. If someone wants to elaborate on it, I can learn somehting I don't know, which is my goal every day.

[pansmom]

I think calling a correction based training method a confrontational approach is way off. We don't go around beating dogs, I teach a dog how to understand a correction then when I do have to correct there are no mixed messages.

I think you are doing wonderful, if you are able to follow Dr. Haugs protocal things should start to fall in place. But Pan is not a reg. dog. Was she born like that or maybe a few cards short and the methods that you started out with didn't help so she learned some bad behavoirs.

I am never mad at my dogs, Or I try not to be and if I am, I try to fake my way though a correction, with the idea of they don't understand me and they are not doing anything to piss me off. Not always easy to do even with experience.

 

I was working with a couple and their unruly dog last weekend. THe dog was totally blowing off the owners (new to dogs). I had no reason to be mad, within a short time she knew exactly what a correction was and what was expected of her. If the new owners can reproduce what I did, they will have a great dog very quickly. While training the humans on what to do, the husband mentioned that he gets very upset or aggravated that the dog misbehaves, so his corrections were filled with anger. The dog was mirroring right back to him what he was showing the dog.

 

Long short of it.....correction based training is not confrontational training. Infact, I have no idea what confrontationl training is. If someone wants to elaborate on it, I can learn somehting I don't know, which is my goal every day.

 

I think Dr. Haug was just being critical of the very confrontational approach, which many people use, especially down here in the South where we are, which involves non-neutral corrections, such as yelling at the dog, getting frustrated with it, doing "wolf mouth" with your hand to its neck if it growls, and if it tries to bite, holding it down. Months ago we were told to do those things with Pan and did try them (being ignorant--even though I hated the idea and it ran so counter to what I believe, because I was so new to dogs and desperate--I tried it). But they were an absolute disaster with Pan, because her response to fear is aggression. So we stopped months ago and started doing more neutral things like time outs and leave the rooms. And these nonconfrontational approaches work better in the moment but didn't really decrease the frequency of the offenses, and Dr. Haug says with a really smart dog like Pan you risk chaining bad behaviors with good ones if you have a contiguous sequence of things like

 

Pan is attacking a cat-->"leave it" (Pan doesn't stop)-->"leave the room" (Pan leaves the room)--> "good dog"

 

In situations like this, all the attention that Pan gets for doing something bad ending in a praise makes the overall experience positive so she does it again if she gets bored. So rather than using redirection what we have to do is set up Pan's life so that every time she does something wrong we can simply safely withdraw attention from her or neutrally interrupt the behavior (with a Gentle Leader for example). This way she gets no attention at all for the negative behaviors and is very positively reinforced for the good ones. What I like about this recommendation is that it makes Pan about a billion times more attentive to me and even more adoring (believe it or not, Pan is really a sweetie when she is below threshold). I am basically letting her figure out on her own what I want her to do.

 

But I digress... Of course Dr. Haug is also being critical of even more confrontational methods - ones we didn't do, which are even more common down here - like pain based training methods and alpha rolls, hitting the dog, all that.

 

The core of what she is recommending is NEUTRAL corrections, that are either very very subtle (involving withdrawing attention--and Pan having to watch us to see whether she's done something right or wrong--because this makes us pay more attention to our voice because most of the time it's a command or praise, so when we do use it occasionally to redirect or tell her no she will listen to that too), or neutrally abort the behavior.

 

I don't think it's that different from what you describe.

[bcnewe2]

(being ignorant--even though I hated the idea and it ran so counter to what I believe, because I was so new to dogs and desperate--I tried it)

 

I enjoyed reading your post. I'm in total agreement to what you are trying to do.

But I did want to point out this little above quote.

 

When I first started working with dogs I found myself in your shoes trying things that my little voice told me weren't right for me, even if they were working for the person that told me what to do. I would go home and try to replicate the same but, because my little voice was telling me it wasn't right or because it was stupid and I should have never even tried. I failed miserably quite often.

 

The point being....it took me several years to become confident enough to say, I believe my little voice. I might prove my own self wrong later but if I hear that little voice saying something I now listen very closely. I hope you and others following your journey take that away from this post. Please listen to your little voice till it says something different.

 

Might be a woman thing you know like female intuition or something, but I really think it might be my conscious or my heart talking to me.

And men have it too!

[Debbie Meier]

Infact, I have no idea what confrontationl training is. If someone wants to elaborate on it, I can learn somehting I don't know, which is my goal every day.

 

I've not heard of it but my mind thinks it's the "restraining vs. training" and the "Your wrong, figure it out" rather then "Let me show you, so you can learn what I expect". Thinking about if your confronting your making a point, really not interested in teaching or wanting to understand why or what you can do to get change.

 

I might be off base, but it's the best I can figure.

[bcnewe2]

I've not heard of it but my mind thinks it's the "restraining vs. training"

 

Nope...sorry still don't get it from that description.

I think it's more the alpha roll type training. OR very strong corrections that are over the top? Maybe where you (general you not personal you) set the dog up to do wrong so you can hammer the dog for doing so?

 

Not clear yet.

 

Deb....are you saying that you don't let a dog figure things out but instead you only show them what they are to do? That might be why you preferred the method that you described in the banana senario. For me, I'd rather have my dogs think for themselves. Figuring things out for themselves. They are rewarded when they figure out the right thing because I remove all pressure or nature does. Pressure being realitive to what's going on.

 

ie. Puppy gets under my feet and I keep walking. Oops, I shuffle kick the dog right when he's about to trip me,(not to be confused with kicking the dog with intention to harm but def. a shuffle kick) or dog forbid I really do trip and fall on him. I don't tell him to walk by my side, but he learns quite fast to stay out from under my feet, or he's going to be uncomfortable, weather it's on purpose or not. It's totally up to him to figure out that walking under me or infront of me is not a good choice.

A comparsion would be...pup wiggles up to adult dog. adult dog bites pups nose for sticking it where it doesn't belong (no blood but not a good thing). Pup learns that's not a good idea, but it's still up to the pup to figure out what is acceptable only now it knows wiggling up to crabby adult dog is not a good choice.

 

Are you saying you would be taking the time to teach him where to walk as opposed to where not to walk? Just wondering. This is not an obeidence dog we're talking about, just a pup that I want manners on.

 

There are some things that I might truely correct for. Lets see, biting my hand will get you a swift bop on the bean. not a punch but you would def. know I wasn't happy. How else would the dog know I wasn't playing.

 

OK...Kristine....step in here and offer your method, they are usually great alternitives to my type training and the dogs still get the information.

[juliepoudrier]

There are some things that I might truely correct for. Lets see, biting my hand will get you a swift bop on the bean. not a punch but you would def. know I wasn't happy. How else would the dog know I wasn't playing.

 

I'm not sure if this is what you were asking, but I would consider the above to be "confrontational" if the dog had temperament issues. For a normal dog, such a correction would work just fine. For a reactive dog, it would serve only to escalate things. My first response to a dog who snapped at me would be an instantaneous whack on the snout, but if I did that to my fear aggressive dog, he'd try to escalate. (Ask me how I know this.) So in my mind, normal corrections for normal dogs might be considered confrontational for dogs who are not quite normal.

 

Otherwise, I would consider confrontational training to be really "in your face"' type training or perhaps something akin to the old coercive methods that were so popular at one time. This would include alpha rolls and the like.

 

But that's all just my interpretation of course.

 

J.

[Root Beer]

I have no idea what confrontationl training is. If someone wants to elaborate on it, I can learn somehting I don't know, which is my goal every day.

 

I see confrontational training not be so much a particular method, but the dynamic between dog and handler. A confrontational approach is one that will put the dog and handler at odds with each other in an ongoing battle of wills. With a confrontational approach there will be, as Dr. Haug said so succinctly in her report, a loser.

 

Even though I don't use corrections in behavior modification, I do not see the use of corrections across the board as confrontational by default. Sure, there are corrections that are more directives and are more or less neutral that will work well enough with a dog of normal temperament.

 

A confrontational approach, as I see it, is one where the dog is deliberately set up to engage in the undesired behavior and then is punished for it in an effort to teach the dog not to do something. It's not, as Deb said a few posts above, "Let me show you, so you can learn what I expect", but more of a "You're wrong, I'm right, Get it right or I'll make you pay" kind of approach.

[Eileen Stein]

Couldn't it be possible that different approaches work best for different dogs? What Dr. Haug said was that "the confrontational approach is an abysmal failure for many dogs." That is unquestionably true for Pan. However, some dogs might respond well to a simple "No" and I tell you what that approach is much easier! I know I'm just a first-time dog owner, but what I would say is, if you do use the confrontational approach, just watch out for signs of nervousness in the dog (ears back, lip-licking, wall-eye, shaking, all the things Dr Haug listed), and if you're seeing them and the dog isn't responding, instead of upping the confrontation and using force, try the nonconfrontational approach. Each child has to be raised slightly differently, right? Why wouldn't the same thing be true of dogs? Pan is an anomale, she is not your regular dog, but the nonconfrontational approach is the only thing that works... for her. If I had never tried any force-based methods with her, ten to one she would never have gone through that period where she growled in her sleep and started up from nightmares barking and so forth. She sure doesn't have that problem anymore.

 

I do agree with this, for the most part, especially the part about closely watching how the dog responds to whatever you're doing and modifying your approach accordingly. And I certainly agree with it if by "confrontational" you mean forceful or angry corrections. If Dr. Haug is including a calm, unemotional "uh uh" or "ahhp" as confrontational, I don't think it's true that that is "an abysmal failure for many dogs." But I do agree that each dog has to be treated as an individual, and different approaches are better for different dogs. One other thing I would say: I think there are few things more stressful to a dog than its person using corrections that they shrink from and that seem wrong to them (usually because someone has told them to do it). The dog definitely picks up on the person's conflicted feelings, and the stress it's sensing and feeling can easily escalate into a host of negative feelings and responses. I have been there, and I think lots of people have early on in their experience with dogs.

 

Please don't think I was dissing you when I said "first time dog owner." I wasn't, not at all. I think you've done an amazing job of thinking through your problems with Pan, and I think this has every chance of working out great for you.

[Eileen Stein]

I see confrontational training not be so much a particular method, but the dynamic between dog and handler. A confrontational approach is one that will put the dog and handler at odds with each other in an ongoing battle of wills. With a confrontational approach there will be, as Dr. Haug said so succinctly in her report, a loser. . . .

 

A confrontational approach, as I see it, is . . . more of a "You're wrong, I'm right, Get it right or I'll make you pay" kind of approach.

 

I totally agree with that. If you find yourself in a "battle of wills" with your dog, where you're thinking that you have to win and show him who's boss, THAT will be "an abysmal failure for many dogs." Probably most.

 

I left out from the quote the part about the dog being "deliberately set up to engage in the undesired behavior" because I think there are times when you might do this that I wouldn't call confrontational at all. For example, if I get in an adult dog who's lived in a kennel, I might set up a situation that would tempt him to counter-surf, so I'm there to give him an "ahhp" the first time he attempts it, rather than risking that he'll do it when I'm not around and get some tasty reinforcements before I can let him know it's wrong. Usually that "ahhhp" is enough to fix it for life -- especially early on when the dog is actively wondering what the conditions are for this strange new way of life -- whereas I'd have much more of a training task if I had to try to deal with it after he'd had counter-surfing successes.

[bcnewe2]

m not sure if this is what you were asking, but I would consider the above to be "confrontational" if the dog had temperament issues. For a normal dog, such a correction would work just fine. For a reactive dog, it would serve only to escalate things. My first response to a dog who snapped at me would be an instantaneous whack on the snout, but if I did that to my fear aggressive dog, he'd try to escalate. (Ask me how I know this.) So in my mind, normal corrections for normal dogs might be considered confrontational for dogs who are not quite normal.

 

Totally agree. Pan is not the kind of dog that reg. methods are working on. Much less "conforntational" methods.

Yes Julie, I have had the same lesson with my fear agressive dog, but I don't think she was ever near the level that Pan is.

 

It really does take an individual approach to each dog. As I'm thinking about how I would never bop my FA dog on the anything, But we still have a form of correction, it's a level of pressure that she is totally comfortable with. Guess I took years to figure out her pressure levels but quickly learned where her over the line limits were. And, didn't go there. Still don't

 

My comments were related to a mention that all should take note on the method's prescribed for Pan by Dr. Haug, and never use confrontational methods and i asked what that meant, more for debate than the answer, as I don't think I would use what I consider to be confrontational methods. below is the quote I was posting a reply to, in a form of question. I felt like he was dissing all correction based training, maybe it was just my take on it. That's why I asked what he meant.

 

by northof49

COngratulations on going to Dr. Haug. She is awesome. I have stresed over and over again that punishment and confrontational approach to behaviour modification is not the way to go, and hopefully those that use and promate that type of traning will read Dr. Haug's report and change their approach.

[Root Beer]

I felt like he was dissing all correction based training, maybe it was just my take on it.

 

Of course I don't know Dr. Haug and can't speak for her, but my guess, based on the report posted, is that she was discouraging the use of correction based behavior modification - particularly for dogs who have issues that would require a vet behaviorst - not all correction based training out of hand. It truly is impossible to say - again, based on that one report given in a specific context - what her position would be on that.

[mbc1963]

The point being....it took me several years to become confident enough to say, I believe my little voice. I might prove my own self wrong later but if I hear that little voice saying something I now listen very closely. I hope you and others following your journey take that away from this post. Please listen to your little voice till it says something different.

 

Might be a woman thing you know like female intuition or something, but I really think it might be my conscious or my heart talking to me.

And men have it too!

 

Me, same story. First time I remember strongly ignoring my little voice, I was interviewing for a summer nanny position. The mother gave me the heebie jeebies during the interview, but I just told myself, "It's only 8 weeks. It'll be fine."

 

HORRIBLE 8 weeks. Perhaps among the worst of my life. Imagine living with a demon boss whom you hate. And being me at 22, who was, I assure you, much "sweeter" and less assertive than I am now!

 

I swore on everything inside me that I would never again ignore my inner voice when it spoke. And I don't think I have. Sometimes it takes me a little while to figure out it's my inner voice talking - the icky nauseated feeling, the sleepless nights - but once I do, I listen and act. I might have to apologize to someone I offended, or I might have to quit a committee I'm on that I don't believe in.

 

Training books told me I should yank my dog's collar when he reacted fearfully. I tried for maybe a week or two. Could see that this was making the dog fearful of ME on top of everything else in the world. The little voice screamed "WRONG" as clearly as if another person were standing next to me. So, I just stopped making Buddy go into situations that scared him. And, as others have said, things stopped scaring him. Bikes used to be a giant fear issue; now bikes ride within inches of us, and Buddy just seems mildly annoyed that I'm making him pause in his routine to acknowlege their presence and make room for them on the path.

 

Oprah did a show on the book, 'The Gift of Fear" recently. Interesting read. Talks about how so many women ignore their inner voice (which is saying, "Run! Run away!") for fear of appearing impolite - and how they get attacked and raped because of it. I think all girls should have to take a class in listening, listening, listening. (Maybe all boys, too... though I don't think they fall as easily into the "be submissive and nice" role as girls do.)

 

Mary

[pansmom]

Totally agree. Pan is not the kind of dog that reg. methods are working on. Much less "conforntational" methods.

Yes Julie, I have had the same lesson with my fear agressive dog, but I don't think she was ever near the level that Pan is.

 

It really does take an individual approach to each dog. As I'm thinking about how I would never bop my FA dog on the anything, But we still have a form of correction, it's a level of pressure that she is totally comfortable with. Guess I took years to figure out her pressure levels but quickly learned where her over the line limits were. And, didn't go there. Still don't

 

My comments were related to a mention that all should take note on the method's prescribed for Pan by Dr. Haug, and never use confrontational methods and i asked what that meant, more for debate than the answer, as I don't think I would use what I consider to be confrontational methods. below is the quote I was posting a reply to, in a form of question. I felt like he was dissing all correction based training, maybe it was just my take on it. That's why I asked what he meant.

 

by northof49

 

Just to be clear, I don't think Dr. Haug was dissing "all correction based training," only "confrontational" training.

Note that I only excerpted a single page of a ten page report...

Based on talking to her extensively for three hours, and the rest of the report, I don't think all corrections = confrontational.

However, I think --any-- corrections for Pan, other than the simple withdrawing of attention, are bad, because she's so timid.

And because we still - even now, months later - have some work to do to regain her trust.

Also, Dr. Haug = she!

[Ooky]

One other thing I would say: I think there are few things more stressful to a dog than its person using corrections that they shrink from and that seem wrong to them (usually because someone has told them to do it). The dog definitely picks up on the person's conflicted feelings, and the stress it's sensing and feeling can easily escalate into a host of negative feelings and responses. I have been there, and I think lots of people have early on in their experience with dogs.

 

I am so glad to read this. I don't know if it's my basic personality or if it is decades of being trained by cats, but I feel terrible when I enact any sort of physical correction on an animal. Well, maybe not any sort, but I prefer being gentle to even horses because I feel pretty sick if it seems like I've hurt or scared the animal. Odin can totally read me and plays dramatic, but I know for stockwork I've got to get better at physical corrections and just corrections in general. My trainer said I should be alpha rolling Odin sort of randomly, to really impress on him who is the leader. I don't disagree with her that as a pet (and an immature, first-and-only-dog, doted on one at that) he's not yet automatically giving me the level of respect or seriousness you need to do the job, especially when around the sheep and other dogs. But I don't understand how to roll and it scares me, so my little voice just keeps saying it is completely unwise for me, the totally inexperienced owner. She did it and he bit her - something I would never have predicted in a million years but she said would happen! (She wore thick gloves.) I keep thinking to myself, but I can easily make him roll over either by command or belly rub? Doesn't that make me some sort of leader? BTW, this trainer's dogs clearly love and worship her and would do anything for her - I do not think she is mean for her "confrontational" methods and Odin made all sorts of appeasement gestures to her after his rolling. I just can't approximate that or some of the other physical corrections I've learned and right now don't know if I ever will or would really want to. I keep thinking, there's got to be some way on stock that I can improve upon who I am with the dog already.

 

Anyway, it's really, really comforting right now to read that and hear it's not an abnormal feeling for early dog owners. Sorry for the digression, but this thread really got me thinking.

 

Pansmom, so happy to hear that you have a good blueprint on how to proceed. Thank you for posting her evaluation. It was very enlightening, even if my dog doesn't share the same issues. I know that behavioral meds made a huge difference for my cat Lobo, so I personally have big hopes for the prozac. I know that takes a while to really take effect, so it will be very interesting to hear updates over the next several weeks! Drip-line of mojo to you and Pan from Odin and I...