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"Borders" "Herding" "BC"


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The thread "Does it bother you to hear borders" made me wonder after reading a post made that a member tries not to use the word "herding" very much, and the term "BC".

 

Whats wrong with them? I'm new to the whole border collie world, but I use the term BC, herding, borders all the time. And I'm very much against the breeding/showing of non-working border collies.

 

Just curious.

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I think it's just how a person views these words.

 

To me, it is a "collie" which is a stock-working dog. A "border" is what an AKC person tends to use to refer to the breed, Border Collie (any "Border Collie" - conformation, performance, pet, stockdog).

 

As for herding, inherently, I don't find it an offensive word. However, as it is used often by (again) AKC folks, it's often part of "going herding" (a sport, a hobby, an amusement, a pastime with one's dog that's fun) or the "herding group" (and, of course, any dog in that group is a "herding dog" and therefore is equated with a dog that would be useful on stock, when that is often far from the truth).

 

BC is simply an abbreviation to me, a quick way to write "Border Collie" just like using someone's initial(s) for their name.

 

It's a personal preference sort of thing that, to me, indicates where you are coming from with regards to the dogs and where your interests lie, even though what you say may be simply a matter of ignorance or what you (these are all the generic "you") have picked up from others. Again, it is an indicator of your "group" and your associations.

 

IMO.

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"Borders" is a pretty consistent indicator of someone who believes herding is incidental to border Collies. I've never heard it used by a rancher, or someone with a commitment to herding BCs.

 

BC doesn't bother me in the least. I don't always feel like typing the extra letters.

 

Herding - depends. I've met a number of ranchers who talk about herding their sheep/cattle, and why not? On the other hand, I've never heard a rancher say, "Lets go do herding today". The AKC herding tests and instinct tests are ruining a perfectly good word, since they actually test for neither.

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Here in Wales we simply call all working Border Collies "sheepdogs"..........for us, there is no other breed of dog deserving of the title. :D

 

I observe the use of the word 'herding' to often mean something quite far removed from a dog actually exhibiting it`s instinctive/innate shepherding behaviour and truly 'working sheep'; folks frequently seem to say "my dog is herding" when really their dog is simply asked to follow a packet of docile 'heavily-dogged' pet-sheep about a tiny pen, whilst a trainer walks backwards rattling a stick with a bag tied to the end'......Oh! what an indignity for a noble sheepdog! :rolleyes::D

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I think another reason some people may avoid the term "herding" is that in many cases, pet owners use the term mistakenly to describe what BC's may do with cats, other dogs, bugs, etc. In most of those cases, the more proper term may be "annoying". :rolleyes:

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A "Border" is a Border Terrier.

 

To me, dropping the "collie" is dropping the most important part. Historically, collie dogs were sheep herding dogs. The "Border" was put on by the ISDS to make the breed they were refining, distinct from the collies which were being bred for the show ring.

 

As often happens, in the native land of the Border Collie, you'll see them called such much less - while outside the Borders is where the name really began to stick. In the US, by the time of the first registry, there was already a distinct difference between many lines of farm or Scotch collies, and the breed that came from those breeding to the trial dogs and the trial standard.

 

I use BC outside in general dog communities because I'm lucky there if people understand there's a difference between kennel club Border Collies and working Border Collies.

 

"Herding" - ditto - I don't bother outside this context. Here, I use working livestock to make sure everyone's on the same page, since many sport people nod and smile and think they are "in" on the term "working" also.

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Hmm....Interesting!

 

I know that when my m-i-l, who is from rural North Yorkshire, first met Kip, she said, "Oh, he's a collie!", and she does always refer to him that way, as in, "Oh, there's a good collie!" (followed by a scratch behind ears and little treat) or "And where is my best collie-dog?" if we bring our other dog with us to visit and don't bring Kip.

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Strangely, my co-worker who owns sheep and breeds/works kelpies called them "borders". I know she has no use for anything AKC-ized, so I thought that was interesting. Maybe this term is prevalent among anyone not immersed in the working collie world. I personally dislike the sound of the word borders and like the sound of collies, so Odin gets called that quite a lot: "that's my collie" or "is there a hungry collie around here?" etc. A while ago I was actually corrected by someone at the park, "Oh, by the way, I think he's a BORDER collie. Collies are taller and have more brown."

 

As far as BC goes, I don't know of anyone who thinks it is semi-derogatory the way some people react to "borders" but I know some here have said they are not into it b/c of all the people from B(ritish) C(olumbia). To those of you from BC, sorry, but tough! It is too easy an abbreviation, and this being the "BC Boards", I think we all share a context-specific understanding here. Just as we don't immediately think of bar-b-ques here when we read "BYB" or our university's graduate school of design when we read "GSD" on this site.

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The term "border" grates on my ear and often (not always) tells me something about the person using it. It's about cultural context. It's somewhat analogous to the use of outdated ethnic terms like "Oriental" or "Negro" in that sense. Using outdated ethnic terms does not mean the person is necessarily racist, but it tells me something about that person's cultural context and that that person may not be very educated or open-minded about diversity. Using the word "border" does not necessarily mean the person is a card-carrying AKC apologist, but it does tell me that that person may not be cognizant of the political battles within the Border Collie world.

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Precisely as I was saying in the other thread. It's not a matter of whether I think "herding with my Border" is annoying - it's simply a mark of having acquired one's terminology (one way or another) from the kennel club world.

 

Just like Eliza Doolittle couldn't open her mouth without being identified as a Bow's Bells girl, until Higgins took her in hand. That doesn't mean it's a permanent problem - one should just be aware that for many serious Border Collie people, you will be identified as being NOT serious until you "upgrade" your vocabulary.

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Then should we say stock dogs and stock work instead? Seems easier but when in conversation we try to say it properly. We have Australian Shepherds but it does not bother me to call them Aussies. It is so easy to say herding but I'm learning to type and say stock dogs instead. N

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To me it's a matter of respect. You don't call the car a Rolls either.

Or maybe you don't call the Rolls just "a car". :rolleyes:

 

Maybe it's me but I don't think calling a Border Collie, collie, or working sheepdog by the name "Border" denotes respect for what the dog is and its rich heritage. It just seems to a term that is diminishing what the dog is somehow.

 

I particularly appreciate Deb's remarks, coming from someone in the UK who is very familiar with top dogs and handlers. From the ISDS website:

 

The Border Collie is renowned for its intelligence, agility, hard work and innate skills with animals for herding. Its skills have been shaped by many generations of breeding. These working dogs have never been bred for appearance.

 

Today we refer to working sheepdogs or British sheepdogs and an ISDS Border Collie has no breed standard. The U.K. is very much the 'kennel of the world' as far as the working sheepdog is concerned. It is the ISDS dogs that provided the gene pool for all the world’s herding sheepdogs whether American, Australian or mainland European.

 

Having only cattle ourselves, we don't think to refer to our dogs as working sheepdogs but do call them working Border Collies when talking to others, to distinguish them from the common conception of the show-ring or performance dogs.

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Funny, in Denmark it's almost the opposite! If You drop the "Border" and just says Collie, then you're probably a show-person and per definition totally bad for the breed.

 

BC, is much the easiest to write when f.ex you are posting something fast. And not at all bad to say or write in DK.

 

Herding or in Danish Hyrdning, is almost the worst thing you can say to a person who really work with his dogs.

I think it's only show-people with no interest in the Border Collies fantastic instinct and working ability who calls it herding.

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I use "herding" because I am a week-end warrior. So, we travel to herd sheep. When I had them at home, I would say "I'm off to work my dogs". Hope that makes sense.

 

I may type BC but I never say it- call it typing laziness. I dislike the word borders. If someone asks me if that is a border? I say, yes, they are both border collies.

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Its skills have been shaped by many generations of breeding. These working dogs have never been bred for appearance.

 

I guess we got lucky as far as appearance goes. Imagine if our Border Collies were truly ugly dogs.

 

 

It's all semantics. Words don't hurt and those that use don't mean any offense. It is simply done out of ignorance or due to a lack of cultural understanding. Therefore I suggest that we teach them the proper way to refer to our dogs. But wait! Do we really want to do that. (Now leaning on a new vocabulary) After all we don't want to cross any strange borders (a line of demarcation) with borders (dogs of a type) do we. We may see a beautiful Barbie across the ring but do we really want our scruffy blue (merle) collar (working) dogs associating with those blue noses (not merle)?

 

(Looking at Jin) "No you stupid dog, she's not for you. She's elegant, has breeding... a classy dame." Jin looks up and replies, "Sorry boss but I'm only in for the sex".

 

The dogs don't care, only we care.

 

I have said this many time in classes where people often take offense at what is said. "There is no need to take offense when none is offered. Neither is there reason to accept an offense when one is offered. Both serve no purpose and accomplish nothing".

 

These people, these city-zens, like Erin (is an offense offered here?) and those that call them borders don't know they are inadvertently offering an offense by saying "borders" or some other phrase.

 

To paraphrase a famous cliche, ignore them for they know not what they do.

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Border Collies (with caps) or BCs works Ok for me. I don't like "borders" for all the reasons stated by others. I also don't like "herding" for all the reasons stated by others. But, like Sue, mine aren't really sheepdogs, either, since they do work sheep regularly (and occasionally goats), but our real focus is on cattle, so to me, mine are stockdogs. Oh, and I don't really see the use of "borders" as necessarily "offering an offense," but, rather, just showing where one is coming from.

 

A

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For me, "Border" is like all those cutesy dog nicknames, usually ending in a "y" or "ie"

(Aussie, Rottie, ...)

BLECH.

 

As for "herding", it always makes me think of fun doggy activities - just some more entertainment for your dog - which somehow stockwork should not be.

 

So, when someone says, "Hey, can I come to your place and try some herding with my border?", I am normally "Going to be out of town."

 

Granted, I am a grouchy kind of person.

 

charlie

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Charlie: you're beyond being a "grouchy kind of person"--you're well on your way to being a full-fledged curmudgeon!! :rolleyes:

 

A

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I'm late to the party, as usual...

 

I think it was Denise on the other thread who said "borders" bugs her, it's her favorite pet peeve. It's hard to argue with that, I mean, we all have stuff that bugs us. Lord knows I do, and I'm only semi-grouchy. I also get that "herding" conjures up the kennel club kind of trials/training and mindset. I've said before, and I'll say it again, that I don't understand quite why it's that much of a BFD. I mean, sure I get that it bugs and why, but I also don't think it shows the disrespect that others have mentioned. I don't know of anyone who says "herding" intending to be disrespectful, it's just the term that they are familiar with. And yes, I say "herding" when I'm talking to people who don't really get what "working my dog on sheep" means.

 

As for BC, I don't get why anyone would have a problem with it. Lazy? Sure, but we abbreviate lots of things (like the aforementioned BFD) on the Internet. I've never heard anyone call a Border Collie a BC in real life.

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Okay, confession time, and I'm sure this is just the weird way my mind works, but even though this is a border collie (= BC) forum, generally the first thing that crosses my mind when I see BC is "Before Christ," even if that no longer is the acceptable term for that era... :rolleyes: Don't worry, though, I really do know folks are talking about dogs on this forum and not calendar systems.

 

J.

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