Breeding Pets

[jdarling]

I couldn't quite figure out if they were selling their dogs ... or their children. There are so many issues with this site ... I'm just speechless.

 

 

Burhill Border Collies

 

 

1. What type of border collies do we breed?

 

We breed the family pet type of border collie, which means our dogs are lower drive, very friendly, love children, and have an off switch.

 

Our dogs are very people oriented and have a strong need for human companionship and affection.

 

Although our pups do fine in recreational sports or herding, they are not appropriate for competitive sports or serious stock dog or sheep dog work as they simply do not have enough drive.

 

2. Are our puppies good with children?

 

Our puppies are very well socialized by our four daughters. They are held and played with a lot, are wrapped up like baby dolls, and are quite doted on by our girls. This, in combination with the great temperament of the parents, makes our pups extremely well suited for homes with children. We are told repeatedly by our customers that our pups blend in extremely quickly to their new home and family setting.

 

We do however say that if there are any behaviour or training issues with the young children in a family, these issues should be conquered before taking on a new pup.

 

3. What type of home do we like to place our pups in?

 

We look for homes that are well settled and stable with there being sufficient family support to care for the dog without there being prolonged periods with the dog being left alone. The family should be united on the issue of getting a dog and sharing in the dog’s needs. Also, there should be a commitment to take the dog to obedience classes starting with puppy kindergarten. The individual or family should also be physically active enough to provide for regular daily exercise for the dog.

 

4. What type of home do we not like to place our pups in?

 

We do not sell our pups to young people who have not finished their education and are not sufficiently settled in life. It is all too possible that opportunities will open up after school that preclude having a dog or that just will not allow sufficient time for a dog.

 

We also do not sell our pups to people who are sufficiently overweight to prevent them from being active enough for a border collie.

 

5. What does our spay/neuter contract mean?

 

When you buy a pup from us you sign a contract in which you agree to spay or neuter your pup by the time she or he is 8 months of age. You are required to send us a certificate from the vet saying this was done.

 

The reason we sell on a spay/neuter contract is because border collies and border collie crosses are the number 1 breed to end up in rescue shelters. This is largely due to indiscriminant breeding that produces unstable temperament and poor health. We do not want any of our pups to become involved in such activities and thereby add to the problem.

 

6. What guarantee do we give on our pups?

 

We give a 2 year genetic health guarantee. We do our best to help insure we produce healthy pups by only using dogs in our breeding program that are tested clear for hips and eyes and are fully healthy and structurally normal in all other ways.

 

7. What is crate training and why do we recommend it?

 

Crate training is the practice of putting the pup into his crate for nighttime, anytime the pup cannot be supervised and when the pup needs time-out. This insures the pup is safe when alone and will also not damage the house and furniture. It is the rare pup that does not enjoy his crate. It is his own space with water, food and toys.

 

Once the pup has grown up and reached the “age of responsibility” and no longer has the urge to chew things, you may consider foregoing the crate if desired.

 

We are anxious for the well-being of our pups and would be hesitant to sell to someone who is against crate training.

 

We recommend wire crates (rather than plastic) for home usage as these offer full ventilation and view so the pup is in a more open area rather than a darkened environment in a plastic crate.

 

8. How often do we breed our dogs?

 

Once a bitch has passed all her health clearances and has reached the age of 18 months, we will breed her. If we are pleased with the quality of pups she produces, we will usually breed her again in her next cycle. Then the decision is made once again according to the health and vibrancy of the pups and the quick recovery of the mom. We will often breed a bitch several times as long as our vet approves and all our pups are strong and vibrant. (We have yet to ever produce weak or poor quality pups, as all our customers can attest).

 

It is often thought that dogs should not be bred each heat cycle, even though they, and all animals, do so naturally in nature.

 

Animals are made to breed each cycle and we have found that our dogs are doing remarkably well under such a practice. We do not always breed every cycle, but do breed repeatedly.

 

Our dogs are vet checked frequently and have, bar none, received outstanding checkups by our vets. They are in wonderful health and are extremely happy. Also, our puppies continue to be very vibrant, both physically and mentally. Our vets have told us that they enjoy checking our pups because they are so well bred and raised.

 

We feed raw dog food to a number of our dogs according to if they are expecting or building up after a litter, and to some dogs full-time. They are given natural remedies and holistic supplements to maintain their health (we manufacture and sell these supplements). All our dogs are cleared for hips and eyes and we don't allow any dog to be in the breeding program if they have any health or genetic issues.

 

It is odd how the conception that dogs should not be bred repeatedly came about. All livestock animals are bred each cycle, yet no one accuses the farmer of being a "puppy mill" with regards to his cows, sheep etc. Few people realize that cows are bred about 2-3 months after they give birth and are pregnant during much of their lactation. But they are made to be bred each cycle.

 

And we can assure people that our dogs are cared for much better than the majority of cows, pigs and chickens these days that never see the light of day (most livestock these days are housed indoors for their entire life).

 

We have completely fenced all of our property so that our dogs have free run in very large areas (the largest area being over an acre) and do not spend much time in kennels or crates except at night. Plus they are a part of our family and have their emotional and social needs met by playing with our children and being with us. They are not livestock. Our dogs are very people-oriented and have a strong need for affection and love. This is freely supplied and they are thriving because of it. We truly enjoy our dogs. But that is not hard to do since our dogs are so easy to live with.

 

9. How does the choosing of the puppies work?

 

Once the puppies are 5 weeks old they are old enough to receive visitors. This is when our customers come out to meet the pups and make their choices. The choosing goes according to place on the reservation list. For example, if the person is second on the list for a male, he gets second choice of the males in the litter.

 

10. How old are our pups when they go to their new homes?

 

Our pups are 7 ½ - 8 weeks old when they are ready to go to their new homes. They are vet checked at 7 weeks.

 

11. What have the pups received by the time they leave us?

 

When the pups are ready to leave they have been vet checked, micro-chipped, de-wormed (two sessions with Panacur), had first set of shots, and have been very well socialized in a home setting by our children.

 

The first set of shots is for distemper, parainfluenza, adenovirus, and parvovirus. The customer receives the vet record for their pup.

 

12. What do we feed our dogs and pups?

 

Some of our dogs are fed a raw diet (Mountain Dog Food). If we had our choice, we would have all of our dogs on a raw diet, but it is simply too expensive with the number of dogs we have. So we rotate on a need-related basis. Roy and Glen are totally raw fed, while our females are fed raw before and/or after a litter.

 

The kibble we use is Costco's Kirkland Signature Lamb and Rice dog food. The puppy food we use is Costco's Kirkland Signature puppy food. Both are high-end kibbles with holistic ingredients and no by-products or fillers.

 

We also give our dogs North Atlantic herring oil (for coat, skin and immune system), organic unpasteurized apple cider vinegar (for digestion and as an excellent mastitis preventative), kefir (natually fermented dairy product for intestinal health), and kelp (trace minerals).

 

Our dogs also receive natural remedies as needed, which we produce ourselves (www.woodlandnaturalremedies.com).

 

13. Which registry do we register our pups with?

 

Our pups are registered with the Canadian Border Collie Association. Border Collies cannot be registered with the Canadian Kennel Club since the Canadian Animal Pedigree Act states that in Canada there can only be one registry for each breed. The Canadian Border Collie Association has been granted that privilege, which is most appropriate since it is a registry which promotes the border collie as a working breed.

 

14. Can I leave a blanket with you so our pup will have an easier transition to our home?

 

Please do not bring a blanket or toy to leave with us. This is an old wives tale about having the mother's smell on something so as to comfort the pup after he leaves. Pups quickly forget about their moms and siblings once they are in their new home (this is the normal course of nature). Having something remind him will only tease or confuse him and prolong the transition. Also, for bio-security reasons, we do not allow outside things from other people into the litter as the other pups will come into contact from germs from your place.

 

 

Russ and Tracey Salamon and family.

 

R.R. 7 Tillsonburg, Ontario N4G 4H1

Tel:519-765-4708

Fax:519-765-4744

email: Tracey@burhillbordercollies.com

[AdmiralGonsiorowski]

I couldn't quite figure out if they were selling their dogs ... or their children. There are so many issues with this site ... I'm just speechless.

 

 

I'm not sure I understand what's wrong with this site, other than the obvious issue that they intentionally breed out working ability. It seems like they've put a lot of thought and effort into their breeding program, and the dogs look healthy, happy, and well cared for. They screen the dogs for health problems before breeding, and they require a spay/neuter contract for the puppies they sell. They're more picky about the homes they give the pups to than just about anyone I've seen. (A little too much, honestly. No fat people?)

[bcnewe2]

I was thinking that if you subsituted a different breed into the contract that I wouldn't find it so horrid till I got to the part about breeding on the first cycle and the 2nd cycle etc. then comparing them to cattle or other livestock for breeding purposes.

That was the biggest line crosser for me.

It's also weird/interesting where they say they register with CBCA because they promote working dogs. BUt earlier they state these dogs have been specfically bred to have less drive than "other" border collies.

 

Like I said, they didn't sound to bad till I got to the breeding part and ok...maybe the fat part. What....if your fat you can't have our dogs? Couldn't this be a lawsuit in the making...as if anyone would really take the time to do that? Do you think they sell or produce these dogs to promote their holistic product market?

 

Strange and sad all at the same time

[Sue R]

Strange and sad all at the same time

Sounds like business, as usual...

[Ooky]

I love how they sound so great with the s/n contract, not wanting more poorly bred or excess BCs entering shelters and rescue....

 

Then claim it's great to breed a bitch on the 1st and then every cycle after (given vet's approval) because it's "natural". Without ever seeing the separate issue of just how many dogs they alone must be producing with a philosophy like that.

 

Hmmm. And I agree with Kristen about the "fat part". Given the # of groups that might be reasonably expected to not provide enough exercise, including inconspicuously lazy people, it just seemed mean.

 

The sad thing is I also don't think they are as bad as some we've seen - which makes them much more legitimate-looking to your average guy, harder to avoid.

[Caerus]

I love how they sound so great with the s/n contract, not wanting more poorly bred or excess BCs entering shelters and rescue....

 

Then claim it's great to breed a bitch on the 1st and then every cycle after (given vet's approval) because it's "natural". Without ever seeing the separate issue of just how many dogs they alone must be producing with a philosophy like that.

 

My thoughts exactly, blech!

 

On an unrelated note, is the claim that BC/Xs are the number one breed to end up in rescue shelters (would that be a rescue or a shelter, btw? or both?) true? Despite the incredible number of BCs in shelters it seems like Labs would have that dubious honor.

[MaryP]

On an unrelated note, is the claim that BC/Xs are the number one breed to end up in rescue shelters (would that be a rescue or a shelter, btw? or both?) true? Despite the incredible number of BCs in shelters it seems like Labs would have that dubious honor.

 

It's not true around here. Mixes are the number one "breed" to end up in shelters.

[Jack & Co.]

The animal shelter is where I got my BC mix; he was turned in with his sibling at around 8 weeks, I think.

[Jumpin Boots]

It's not true around here. Mixes are the number one "breed" to end up in shelters.

 

Around here you mainly see pitbull and shepard mixes. I have noticed that any black and white dog w/ a longer coat they tend to call a bc. My sister still thinks her dog who was clearly a springer spaniel, and pretty close to being purebred was a bc. Because the shelter said at 10 weeks, which of course a 10 week of puppy is so easy to tell what it is and since shelter workers are all knowing right, ugh, sister fights sure can be entertaining.

[Gary M]

So they have 8 bitches and 1 stud and they say they breed pretty much as often as they can.

 

They are typical back yard breeders. They pretty up their site a bit by throwing in pics of the kids, but still breed for the money, not the welfare of BC's or with a conscience towards the pet over population problem.

 

As I heard in an interview one time, "you can sterilize poop in a microwave, but in the end it is still poop"

 

I don't see much difference here.

[sea4th]

We had a situation in the NE Ohio area similar to this. 3-4 bitches, one or two intact males times x 25 or 30 years. Do the math. Their dogs too were beloved family pets --- with uterus' and testicles, made them beyond pet status --- can anyone spell "C A S H C R O P". I wonder how many kids they put through college with the $$$$ off those dogs, or how many living room sets they bought, or how many times they redecortated their house, or bought a new car and on and on and on.

 

These sorts --- their marketing strategy must be to hit 'em with schmaltzy, saccharine sentimentality and that will take the attention off the fact that they're parting some sucker from his or her hard earned bucks.

[sweet_ceana]

doG forbid any of their sweet little puppy socializing children wind up overweight, wouldn't they be in a pickle. That just irritates me. Would they not sell a pup to a body builder since they too would be considered "overweight," if you go by the numbers? I wonder how the mother of the kids would feel about being bred every cycle? Why not lady, it is pefectly natural, pop one out and have another go!

 

Yeesh, can you tell the fat thing really P-O-ed me?

[AdmiralGonsiorowski]

doG forbid any of their sweet little puppy socializing children wind up overweight, wouldn't they be in a pickle.

 

Lol, how perfect would that be?

[jdarling]

I think the scariest thing about this website is how pretty it is and how it makes it look like there's nothing wrong at all with what they are doing. You have pretty pictures, pretty children, pretty puppies, a pretty website and it's all so (cultish) pretty. It almost makes the text on there look pretty too. It almost makes you forget that their dogs don't work livestock a day in their lives and they are doing nothing to maintain the working ability in the breed and they make no apologies for it. They pop out litter after litter - heat after heat - and only sell to skinny people. And make no apologies for it. They import, and most recently imported a pretty gold pup, only to find out it's got health problems, and they make it a point to say that they are culling that from their breeding program, but the fact that they would put that breeding in their breeding program in the first place is evidence that they could care less about the working ability in the breed. But it's all done very (cultish) pretty.

[border_collie_crazy]

ya, the breeding at every season being "natural" thing bothers me. first off wild canines only go into season once a year, the equivilent on domestic dogs is skipping a season. even Gerbils when allowed to breed completly naturally(they mate for life, are fetile every 6 days, gestation is 24 days and usually have a litter every 4 weeks or so) guess what? they take breaks, they sit back, skip fertile periods and allow their bodies to recover, they wont have anouther litter until they can handle it. this breeders dogs dont have the option of taking a break because their owner is in control and has apperntly decided it is "natural" to never allow the dog to take a break

[AllieMackie]

This was one of the places I was looking at when initially looking for breeders - and quickly looked away. It's a very decieving website, which is unfortunate - you'll notice all of their litters sell quickly.

 

ETA: Also the kids look like zombies :|

[Jumpin Boots]

I was thinking the same thing about the kids, they look super shy and glossed over, more on the creepy side than cute.

[IronHorse]

I think the scariest thing about this website is how pretty it is and how it makes it look like there's nothing wrong at all with what they are doing. You have pretty pictures, pretty children, pretty puppies, a pretty website and it's all so (cultish) pretty. It almost makes the text on there look pretty too. It almost makes you forget that their dogs don't work livestock a day in their lives and they are doing nothing to maintain the working ability in the breed and they make no apologies for it. They pop out litter after litter - heat after heat - and only sell to skinny people. And make no apologies for it. They import, and most recently imported a pretty gold pup, only to find out it's got health problems, and they make it a point to say that they are culling that from their breeding program, but the fact that they would put that breeding in their breeding program in the first place is evidence that they could care less about the working ability in the breed. But it's all done very (cultish) pretty.

 

From what I have perviewed of this website I am going to have to dissagree with you Jodi.

The site is well done and imho quite informative as to the intentions as well as the pratices of these breeders.(I don't agree with their pratice of breeding every cycle but not being a breeder myself I cannot honestly dispute their reasoning)

 

Their critia for buyer selection is not at all unreasonable,no more so then someone breeding for working stock being unwilling to sell to a non working home.

The statement;

We also do not sell our pups to people who are sufficiently overweight to prevent them from being active enough for a border collie.

Does not in my eye indicate that they only sell to "skinny" people, it does however indicate that they choose not to sell to obese people,by wording it as "sufficiently overweight" beats saying fat or obese and not a thing illegal about stating "we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone".

There is nothing that suggest "cultish" to me anymore then a breeder who only sells to working homes.

 

These people make it quite clear that they are breeding and selling for purposes other then working and make no excuses for that.I find that to be an honorable approach,nothing misleading about it at all.

 

As far as your statement;

They import, and most recently imported a pretty gold pup, only to find out it's got health problems, and they make it a point to say that they are culling that from their breeding program, but the fact that they would put that breeding in their breeding program in the first place is evidence that they could care less about the working ability in the breed.

 

I think it only fair that what they have stated be fully quoted from their website information;

 

February 22, 2009: However, we are very sad to say we have received news from Davey's breeder in England and from the owner of Davey's dad that Davey's dad Neo has been diagnosed with glaucoma at the young age of 5 and that many of Neo's offspring, having just been tested, are also affected. This is such unexpected news especially since glaucoma is almost unheard of in border collies and because we know that these breeders have taken such careful attention in their breeding to ensure the optimal health of the puppies they produce. This is something that no one could have foreseen.

 

As such, Davey will never be entering our breeding program. We have had his eyes tested by our opthalmologist, and although Davey has tested positive for a structural anomaly of the drainage system of his eyes, our opthalmologist is optimistic that Davey might not develop glaucoma. Only time will tell.

We have no plans to sell Davey as he is such a special boy and is such a delight to train. He has enough brains for two dogs, and our daughters, who are enjoying working with him, will have him as their special dog to take through obedience training.

 

Seems to me that this was never something they knowingly were bringing into their breeding program only recently (feb 22) finding out were quite professional in having their opthalmologist run testing on the dog (not exactly cheap to have done)and keeping their website very up to date by publically declaring that this dog would NOT be entering their breeding program.

The inclusion of a spay/neut clause in their sale's contract, well how much more responsible can a breeder be to keep unwanted litters off the ground?

(I would be curious to review their actual sale contract, my guess is that its a very thorough document.)

Not having personally contacted nor set foot on these breeders facilities I would IF I were shopping for a Border Collie suited towards a pet/companion home, then from what they advertise on their website they would definately be the type of breeder I would be interested in contacting to take it to the next step.

 

Until or unless I were to have evidence that these breeder's were being deceptive about what they are then this is most definately a site I would steer the person looking to buy a Border Collie pup for a pet home towards.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a person breeding and selling dogs for profit providing they are doing it honestly and pridefully.

To suggest that these breeders are a "typical" BYB is to be rather presumptuous without furthur investigation.Nothing that appears on their web site indicates such a presumption IMHO.

 

We can argue the "who and why" the breed should be bred until the cows come home but it will not change the fact that the breed is evolving down different paths for different reasons.

Of course these breeders do not share the policy of this site nor do they pretent to.

 

Are these breeders contributing to the shelter/rescue populations of BCs?

If what they state is true then I would believe they are achieving just the opposite.

[IronHorse]

This was one of the places I was looking at when initially looking for breeders - and quickly looked away. It's a very decieving website, which is unfortunate - you'll notice all of their litters sell quickly.

 

ETA: Also the kids look like zombies :|

 

What is so decieving about their website?

Have you had personal contact with this breeder that would give insight to make such a statement?

The fact that their litters sell quickly is a bad thing?

How so?

The kids look like zombies?

Was this nessessary to the context of the thread? wasn't the impression I recieved from viewing the pictures but maybe I don't know what a "zombie" kid looks like.

[jdarling]

Ironhorse, I understand what you're getting at. Let me ask you this, though. The Border Collie by definition is a working dog. If the Border Collies you're breeding are not working dogs, are they still Border Collies? Or it's ok in this instance because they are honest about it and call it what it is? I don't see how that maintains the working ability in the breed. Why not call them Pet Collies? Or Border Pets?

 

(Because I know someone will ask ... "What do you call a Border Collie from a working breeder that doesn't work?" The answer is spayed or neutered.)

 

I won't even get into your contention that they are helping the overpopulation problem by breeding multiple pet quality litters and selling them on spay/neuter contracts, other than to say I strongly disagree with your assessment for obvious reasons.

 

If they are not breeding for working ability and to maintain the breed as it was originally intended, what are they breeding for, and how does that set them apart from what BYBs breed for?

 

We can argue the "who and why" the breed should be bred until the cows come home but it will not change the fact that the breed is evolving down different paths for different reasons.

 

So we should just throw our hands up in the air and give up?

 

Jodi

[sea4th]

I have a problem with anyone breeding for the pet market. Period. To me, any one who breeds for a pet market is a backyard breeder or a puppy mill. This one looks like it's bordering on a mill situation.

 

If we are to believe shelter euthanasia statistics in this country, I'd say not all of those dogs who make up those stats are unadoptable. Until those statistics dramatically drop, anyone breeding for the pet market, no matter what lip service they give, is not a responsible breeder.

[juliepoudrier]

Amen, Vicki.

 

J.

[D Strickland]

Everyone has their own opinions on this so here's mine :

 

These people are up-front and honest about the fact that they breed "pet" quality Border Collies. They sell on spay/neuter contract which tells me that either they want to control their own little market .. or it may be that they don't want to flood the market with "Pet" quality BCs that will breed more crappy BCs.

 

In my opinion the only thing they can be accused of is trying to make a buck !!! It's not right or ethical in my eyes but what can you do ????

 

My only suggestion would be to see if the Canadian Border Collie Association can de-register their dogs.

 

*** One thing history has taught us is that we can't force others to believe what we believe in .... The Crusades are the perfect example. *****

All we can do is provide information and let others decide for themselves.

[IronHorse]

The Border Collie by definition is a working dog.

The course of animal husbandry is an ongoing human endeavor.

As any breed of animal evolves due to human manipulation its purpose/purposes shall expand and or contract according to desirability.

I believe that the Border Collie breed is at a point in its evolution that has sprouted branchs which makes your definition outdated.

 

If the Border Collies you're breeding are not working dogs, are they still Border Collies? Or it's ok in this instance because they are honest about it and call it what it is? I don't see how that maintains the working ability in the breed. Why not call them Pet Collies? Or Border Pets?

 

A valid question, but one that only refinement of the definition could determine.

I believe this would be a matter for the registries and whatever powers that decide when a new breed is offically a new breed and not just a continuation of an exsisting breed branching into multiple purpose.

This breeder ultilizes the appropriate registries to maintain heritage and bloodlines that identify its dogs as Border Collies, therefore of course they are still Border Collies but the breeder clearly expounds their breeding purpose is not that of the originating breed.

 

I won't even get into your contention that they are helping the overpopulation problem by breeding multiple pet quality litters and selling them on spay/neuter contracts, other than to say I strongly disagree with your assessment for obvious reasons.

 

An assumption on my part but here goes anyway.

A person purchasing a pet Collie from this breeder is far more likely to get the pet they are looking for and not winding up with a wired up pup that came from a working class breeder who decides their rejects are better suited to pet or sport homes.

My bet is this breeders dogs are not finding their way into shelters and rescues.

 

If they are not breeding for working ability and to maintain the breed as it was originally intended, what are they breeding for, and how does that set them apart from what BYBs breed for?

Their website clearly states what they are breeding for, their intention is pretty crystal clear that they are breeding for purpose and they clarify the difference from a working class breeder.

I wouldn't set them apart from what BYBs breed for because my definition of BYB would encompass a full spectrum of breeders(from AAA to criminal) short of what I would concider a puppymill.

 

So we should just throw our hands up in the air and give up?

 

Of course not.

Strive for the purpose it is in the breed that you wish to excel with but at the same time accept the realization that other people will strive for the purpose in the breed that they wish to excel with.

To me its a matter of refinement of definition.

Pets/sports/work/other, like it or not the Border Collie is all that and more.

I stated sometime back that it will be interesting to see how these branchs grow over the next 100 years.

[IronHorse]

I have a problem with anyone breeding for the pet market. Period. To me, any one who breeds for a pet market is a backyard breeder or a puppy mill. This one looks like it's bordering on a mill situation.

 

If we are to believe shelter euthanasia statistics in this country, I'd say not all of those dogs who make up those stats are unadoptable. Until those statistics dramatically drop, anyone breeding for the pet market, no matter what lip service they give, is not a responsible breeder.

 

This is more of a political statement then it is a culture statement IMHO

 

What would you do?

Make it mandatory for anyone wanting a pet to adopt? errode our diminshing rights even more?

The pet market is a viable industry and a person has to keep it in mind that one man's pet is another man's livestock.

 

shelter euthanasia statistics in this country over the past two decades has dramatically dropped unless what i researched a few years back has completely changed.