dracina Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 This is my first post, but I do read the board often, and am very grateful for the information I have received from all of you! I have seen some discussion about BC behavior, particularly aggression and other "quirky" BC issues, but I do not recall seeing this particular problem discussed. Please accept my apology if this is redundant! First, some background about our situation: I have two border collies, both adopted from shelters. Marcus Antonius is our 2 yr. old black-tipped sable BC who my husband and I adopted at 10 weeks old. He is very BC typical: super intelligent, a bit bossy but biddable enough, really active, and extremely loyal. Last May, we adopted Jack, a black and white BC who was found as a stray. He was skinny, a bit timid from being kept in a cage at the shelter for a few weeks, but otherwise happy. He has turned out to be a fantastic dog: very intelligent, very biddable, and very active. The problem is this: when exercise stops (say, frisbee is stopped by me or my husband after what we deem an acceptable amount of time, 20-30 mins.), Jack will redirect his energy toward Marcus, attacking him without provocation. This happens whether he is leashed or not, and whether or not he has had a period of calming time after exercise (for example, after taking away the frisbee, I will make him lie down and stay for a short period to try to refocus him). When his attack on Marcus is thwarted by me or my husband, he then turns his rage onto us by jumping up, biting, snapping and growling. I try to calm him by remaining calm, speaking to him firmly but calmly, physically blocking him by standing in front of him, leash correction (which is pretty futile when he escalates like this), and physically touching him (think slight shove; nothing harsh at all). Strangely, he will abide by my sit or lie down command, but will continue biting and growling at me. It takes anywhere from 2 to 25 minutes for him to calm himself, and I do not allow him to move forward until he is calm. Sometimes, after he will not calm for 20 or 25 minutes, I pick him up and carry him back to the car. Once he finally refocuses, he turns back into a sweet, biddable, calm-seeming dog. This same behavior also happens while walking on a leash if he sees a bike or rollerblader, if his brother is playing with other dogs, if he sees a child bouncing a basketball, or after he participates in obedience class. However, this is easier for us to control since we can see the signs and re-direct his attention or move him quickly away. But we are not fixing the problem, and it seems as though his reaction is escalating. He bit my mother (requiring stitches) when she tried to seperate Jack while he was going after Marcus. Both dogs have a high herding drive, and we try to redirect this with frisbee, agility and obedience. We have some experience with dogs, and have done much to understand this breed. We belong to a dog training club, and the dogs are in class one night a week, year-round. Marcus has successfully completed two obedience courses and is currently in his second agility course; Jack has successfully completed Beginner's Obedience and is now in Advance Beginner's. They have both taken sheepherding courses. We also practice agility at home with a small course in the backyard. Both dogs lean toward trying to be dominant; so we work very hard to maintain our status by practicing obedience in our daily routine. They also walk on a leash 4-5 times daily, for about 15 mins. each time (rather than potty in the backyard). In addition, we play frisbee daily for about 15-30 mins. (both dogs at the same time). The dogs DO have plenty of down time, too. I am home most days with them, and they rest, chew bones and sleep alot. At home, they are pretty calm, and Jack's aggressive behavior rarely (if ever) surfaces. I have tried limiting Jack's activity (thinking that he may be over-stimulated), but this behavior continues as soon as activity is resumed. I have spoken to several trainers, none of who are familiar with border collies in particular. They all give me the same solution: try to redirect with food or praise, but his does not work at all with Jack. This might sound naive, but I do not think that Jack is viscious, just misdirected, frustrated, and lacking self-control. Does anyone else have a similar problem, and have any suggestions about how I can help him, and keep my other dog and family safe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 This might sound naive, but I do not think that Jack is viscious, just misdirected, frustrated, and lacking self-control. Does anyone else have a similar problem, and have any suggestions about how I can help him, and keep my other dog and family safe? No, it doesn't sound naive, and based on what you wrote, my guess would be the same. His behavior sounds more like a "burst" of overstimulation than aggression to me. Disclaimer: I am not a behaviorist, I have not seen the dog and am only interpreting based on what I have read and should in no way be considered a professional opinion, but a personal one. I have seen this type of behavior on a very, very low level with one of my Border Collies. When we first adopted him, he would redirect himself onto one of our other dogs when he, for lack of a better term, got "upset". For instance, if I took another dog out to train and left him in the house, he would jump one of the other dogs in the house - just for about 10 seconds. Of course, once I was aware of that, I started isolating him when I needed to shut him up and the behavior did extinguish. He also did this when I showed affection to one of the other dogs in front of him. It was a very low-level behavior in his case and rewarding him for remaining calm did the trick. It sounds to me like this response is much stronger in Jack. Does he ever do this same thing when you exercise him without Marcus or when Marcus is not in the picture? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dal & Mad's Mom Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 I see this type of behavior usually in Young dogs coming to rescue and a small scale with older dogs but, they are strongly scolded for it. The young dogs will climb up my back dig at me and mouth me to no end. Usually for them it goes away with time. I would think in an older dog a strong key word for distraction might work. One associated with a treat or very special toy only seen at that time. I'm no real dog trainer but, I wouldnt think this sounds like agression either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afrancis Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 Does he ever do this same thing when you exercise him without Marcus or when Marcus is not in the picture? That's what I was going to ask too. If you're not doing so already, is it possible for you to exercise them separately, i.e. play with them and the frisbee one-on-one instead of together? I would think that this would certainly defuse the behaviour if there was only one dog there. Ailsa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dracina Posted February 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 Thank you so much for the responses! I should also mention that Jack has a difficult time in these situations releasing the object he is playing with (frisbee or ball), and asking him to "drop it" can trigger an episode. During play, he will drop the object willingly, but if he senses that the exercise is ending, he will usually not want to release the object. Yes, we do try to seperate them a couple of times a week for exercise, but when we return home, Jack will immediately take an aggressive posture with Marcus (showing the teeth, low growl), although not as extreme. However, he still will get somewhat aggressive with me or my husband when the activity is stopped, or one of the other triggers I mentioned occurs. Again, his response is still growling, biting, and jumping- but to a lesser extreme and certainly more controllable. We have tried high value treats and commands, but Jack acts as if he is completely in a zone and ignores these things. Also, both dogs are neutered, and about the same age (2 yrs.). Other than these incidents, Jack and Marcus seem to adore each other, and get along wonderfully during play. Marcus seems to be the dominant of the two, but there are times when Jack is boss. For instance, Marcus is the leader of the two on walks, and greets other dogs while Jack hangs back; he is also makes decisions for the two as far as what to do, and Marcus will sometimes physically block Jack from acquiring something (like a toy, or affection) that Marcus wants. However, Marcus will usually not approach his food until Jack has begun to eat, and when Jack is having one of these episodes against me or my husband, Marcus mostly practices aviodance- he slinks away, and will sit about 50 feet away from the action. He will fight back when Jack attacks him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 If you're not doing so already, is it possible for you to exercise them separately, i.e. play with them and the frisbee one-on-one instead of together? I would think that this would certainly defuse the behaviour if there was only one dog there. Definitely management will be helpful with this situation. What truly concerns me though is the fact that the dog bit the OP's mother badly enough to require stitches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbc1963 Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 No personal experience dealing with it but... I walk my dog on leash around my neighborhood, and occasionally there are pairs of dogs behind fences who will bark, growl, and lunge as we walk by. It's not at all uncommon to see one of the dogs turn and snarl or snap at the other one in the heat of that frustration. One pair of malamutes that we LOVE will visit nicely through their chain link fence, but when the bigger boy gets frustrated that he can't get petted by me right away, he'll get snippy with the littler girl. Seems to be more about inability to deal with frustration that out-and-out aggression. Sounds like Marcus just has the good sense to stay away from a dog who's acting nuts. My dog will do that - doesn't matter if he's dominant or not, if the other dog is snarling and growling to tell him to stay back, he's happy to stay waaaaay back. Good luck! Mary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dracina Posted February 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 Definitely management will be helpful with this situation. What truly concerns me though is the fact that the dog bit the OP's mother badly enough to require stitches. Yes, that really concerns me, too. I am afraid that this will happen again if we do not stop this behavior now. The vet has checked Jack out, and says he is in perfect health, so we are pretty sure his behavior is not motivated by anything physical. But because of the biting incident, we are extremely reluctant to have him close to anybody except for my husband and I. And, as EVERYONE with a dog like this says, Jack is perfect 99% of the time. He loves all people and all other dogs, and is the sweetest thing when he is not having an episode. Maybe we should contact a behaviorist- can anyone recommend one in the Chicago area? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 Maybe we should contact a behaviorist- can anyone recommend one in the Chicago area? That was going to be my suggestion. It sounds to me like this is a rather complex issue and you might need to address it on several levels, which might be beyond the scope of an ordinary trainer. I don't know of anyone in that area, but I would check around - maybe you could get a referral from someone at your dog training club, or your regular vet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dracina Posted February 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 Thank you for your input! I have been pretty upset about the situation, and I really appreciate all of the advice. I will talk to my training club and ask for a recommendation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ms.DaisyDuke Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 I agree that you should find a behaviourist. For sure this issue will take some time to work it's self out. I don't really thing it's aggression though, like others have said. It does sound like he has impulse control and redirects his frustrations onto who ever is closest. Here is a link to Pamela Dennison's website. She has some excellent books ("Bringing light to Shadow" was a huge inspiration for me) and I am sure you could find some resources there, possibly a trail to behaviourists in your area... http://www.positivedogs.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 Here is a link to Pamela Dennison's website. She has some excellent books ("Bringing light to Shadow" was a huge inspiration for me) and I am sure you could find some resources there, possibly a trail to behaviourists in your area... http://www.positivedogs.com In fact, you contact Pam through the site (see "Contact" at the top) and see if she could recommend someone in your area to work with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 Information on veterinary behaviorists has been posted in the past by Melanie Chang (SoloRiver). She has had extensive experience with behavioral issues and always recommends a board-certified veterinary behaviorist. You can find one at this link. I'm not sure where exactly you're located, but there is a certified vet behaviorist listed in Carol Stream, IL, and another in West Lafayette, IN. The advantage of a vet behaviorist is that they have a degree in veterinary medicine, which means they can prescribe meds, if needed, as part of a course of treatment, and they have done residency in animal behavior. These would be the top-of-the-line behaviorists. As Melanie would say, beware of animal trainers who call themselves "behaviorists." It's not the same thing, and some of those folks could do more harm than good. If you want to ask Melanie about this topic, I'm sure she'd respond if you search her member name SoloRiver and send her a PM. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afrancis Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 Definitely management will be helpful with this situation. What truly concerns me though is the fact that the dog bit the OP's mother badly enough to require stitches. Oh Lordy, I missed that! Sorry. I agree with everyone else in that case -- it sounds as though it is a serious situation if he has that little impulse control in these scenarios, and certainly Marcus must not appreciate that kind of attention either, not to mention your entire family. Get thee to a good behaviourist. Ailsa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dracina Posted February 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 Thanks again to everyone that responded to my post: I did purchase the Pamela Dennison books that were recommended, and they are incredibly helpful already. I think that Jack is very similar to Shadow in many ways. Thanks for the insight, and I will keep the group posted! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 Please do keep us posted. I hope some of Pam's techniques are helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ms.DaisyDuke Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 Yes, I would really like updates too. I found the info in "How to right a dog gone wrong" very useful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dracina Posted March 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2009 Just want to give you all an update on Jack, our very *reactive* boy: A few weeks ago, we went to see Jack's regular vet, who did recommend a good veterinary behaviorist (thanks juliepoudrier and everyone who mentioned that route). After more blood tests that positively ruled out any underlying issues that could lead to aggression, Jack was prescribed fluoxetine (the Prozac). I know that there has been lots of discussion about fluoxitine on this board, and I want to mention our experience with it, albeit so far very brief! Even though it has only been two weeks, we have already begun to see some change in his behavior. He is more relaxed in many situations, and his aggressive episodes have lessened in both frequency and severity. The fluoxitine has not been a cure-all, though, nor do we expect it to be. Of course Jack still becomes stresses and will lash out, and that is where the behavior modification comes in. We have continued our program of behavior modification which we implemented long ago, though it had very little affect on Jack until he started the Prozac. Now, he seems to be more receptive to training. Hopefully, Jack is on his way to becoming a happier, more focused, and less anxious dog who once again can enjoy life sans freak-out! Thanks to everyone again for their expertise. PS, Jack is the black and white in my avatar; Marcus is the sable. They are staring at the sheep in the pen..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted March 21, 2009 Report Share Posted March 21, 2009 It is very nice to hear some feedback and hear that you are making good progess. Keep up the good work and best wishes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martySQ Posted March 22, 2009 Report Share Posted March 22, 2009 You mentioned when playtime ended dog would not release ball or frisbee, so at least if that is in his mouth and dog is on leash, if you start walking away, dog can't bite if there's a tennis ball in his mouth. that doesn't mean he still won't come around to the front and jump at you to get you to stay. Of course, if dog goes to nip and bite, he drops the ball and then he has a quandry... do I want you to stop, and do what I want, or do I want the ball. My bet is he will go for the ball again, and continue the silly business until he understands you aren't giving in. This sounds like an escallated version of what my dog Bess sometimes gets up to when she doesn't think our walk was long enough...basically, hey, I'm not done yet, and I want you to rethink this and let me play longer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idbrandi Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 I have a 7 yr old that does sort of the same thing. When we are just sitting around and my other two dogs are in the frontroom he will be in the hall licking the walls. But than when something triggers him he come running in to the frontroom and grabs the muzell of my young female. He know betters than to try it with the other one. Play, the phone ringing, me picking up the remote, just about any little thing can set him off. And sometimes I think nothing does also. The one he goes after tries to hide from him but sometimes she isn't prepared for it. I try to correct him but you never know when it will happen and he is quick about it. The other day she saw me pick up the remote and came right up on my lap because she knew he would be coming. I have no idea what to do with him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.