Ghost bit me.

[Flamincomet]

Yesterday Ghost bit me on the wrist.

I was feeding him outside (He is fed raw) when he randomly started growling, there was no one around but me, so I assumed it was directed at me, which is a BIG no no. So, I walked up to him, and told him to, "Back Off" my verbal cue for him to back away from his food so I can pick it up, after which he gets it back right away. Well this time he didn't back away, his head was lowered and he continued to growl louder, so I slowly and deliberately started to move my foot in between Ghost and the food, at which point he backed off quickly, but started to SNARL, with his upper lip curled very high. Once he was a safer distance away I reached down to pick up his food, Ghost then snapped at my hand again, so I grabbed him just behind his jaw with both hands, looked him in the eyes and told him to KNOCK IT OFF. He then shook his head free of my grip, bit me several times on one arm (No punctures) and went after my other arm, which he did puncture. (One on the inside of my wrist and another on the outside.)

 

Now, I don't know if I handled the situation correctly or not, but I feel that regardless, he should NOT have bitten me.

 

Ghost has been food aggressive since he was a young puppy, and I have been working with him on it ever since I noticed his behavior. He was hand fed for weeks at a time, and was made to work for his food, either kibble by kibble, handfuls, or just doing tricks such as down-stays for his bowl. It got to the point where he was completely comfortable with me reaching for his bowl, moving it around, and sometimes taking it away (Only to give it back right away, most of the time with an added goody on top). I also introduced a command, "Back Off" where he would back away from his food and calmly lay down while I picked up his food, put it back down, and released him with a happy, "Ok!"

 

I thought we had made a ton of progress, which is why him biting me came as such a shock.

 

Now, there HAVE been cases where Ghost has directed his aggression towards the cats if they are around while he's eating, and he will sometimes growl at me in those situations, but a quick Back Off command has always taken care of that. And regardless, yesterday there was NO other living thing there but me.

 

Ghost is also very reactive to other dogs, at shows and trials he is constantly overstimulated, always on the lookout for a dog to simply LOOK at him, at which point he loses it, and lunges and screams at the end of the lead.

 

I have been through obedience class with him 2 times (He is in his 3rd class, but we won't be completing it), go to a combined rally/agility class that my kennel club does, have gone to handling class in the past, and also take him anywhere there is an opportunity to work with and socialize him.

 

He is also exercised EVERY day, I bike with him, take him on walks, throw ball at the park, do obedience work, work on handling, and random other stuff to keep his mind happy and exercised.

 

Despite everything that I have done, it seems that he is only getting worse, not better. He has recently started growling and snapping at other dogs if they come to close, and he actually tried to bite one of my friends after she corrected him for being reactive towards another dog.

 

After he bit me I came to the hard decision to let a member of my local kennel club take him. He is staying in one of their kennels until I come to a decision.

 

I have come to realize that Ghost can't stay with me, I don't think we are the best match personality/temperament wise. I am a pretty passive person, and I feel that Ghost needs someone a lot more dominant. I feel that if he were to stay with me his behavior would continue to decline. I know that if I were in the same situation again I would back down and not confront him, which means he wins and it reinforces the behavior.

 

The options I have now are to neuter and rehome him with a more experienced owner that is willing to work on his issues, or to put him down.

 

Obviously I want the first option, but how would I go about finding someone like this? The local border collie rescue has already said that if they got him, he would be put down. But members of my kennel club, who know Ghost's temperament very well, think that he could be rehabilitated if placed with the right person.

 

I live in Central Washington, and if someone could point me in the right direction I would greatly appreciate it.

 

Autumn

[mbc1963]

Wow. Very tough situation. I have nothing to offer but sympathy, since I also own a reactive dog. Good luck.

 

Mary

[Journey]

How old is he? Have you spoken with the breeder? Just wondering as that would be my first call (long time ago). Has he had a complete medical check up? What about feeding him in his crate, no other place, only gets to eat in his crate?

 

Karen

[bc4pack]

Have you had a really good medical workup done on Ghost?Not just thyroid but tick borne and even ortho along

with complete bloodwork. It is possible that there could be an underlying reason or perhaps contributing factor...even from puppyhood.

Have you ever worked with a Dog Behaviour consultant or a Vet Behaviourist that is well versed in reactive dogs?

Some times an 'outside' pair of knowledgeable eyes can really help.

Have you availed yourself of free help on-line? Like the Agbeh Yahoo Group (Aggressive Behaviour in Dogs).

 

Really sounds like you could use some specific help...

I realize you are kinda at wit's end but I'm not sure how wise it would be to try and pass on a 'project' dog.

[Bordercentrics]

I am so sorry about Ghost. Your local rescue is typical; they won't take a dog that has bitten. The liability it too great, and they could be out of rescue in no time if they placed dogs with aggression problems of any kind. I do hope that one of your friends at the club who thinks Ghost can be rehabilitated is willing to take him on as a project.

 

There is one excellent book you should read - "Bringing LIght to Shadow" by Pam Dennison. It is her training diary of working with Shadow, her Border Collie who was aggressive toward everyone. It took her a year of intense work. Pam is a professional trainer, and had a lot of friends who were also pros to help her. It may not be something you can do, but at least you will know what is involved in such a project.

 

One other note. I don't know how committed you are to feeding raw, but we once had a dog that became a tad aggressive when we began feeding raw, because raw food is the HIGHEST VALUE food in the world to a dog, We went back to kibble for this dog and all was well for the rest of his life. It was not the diet, but the value of the food in the dog's eyes.

 

Kathy Robbins

[Flamincomet]

Karen, Ghost is 1 year and 3 months old. I have spoken to his breeder, she doesn't have enough room to take him back, nor does she know of anyone that would take him. He hasn't had a medical check-up yet, this has all been very sudden and I'm just pulling myself together, that is on my radar though. I used to feed him in his crate, but he started to get crate aggressive and would bark and lunge towards anything walking by. (That behavior is no longer a problem.)

 

bc4pack, I've worked with several knowledgeable people, though I don't think they are licensed as behaviorists. The person who runs the local BC rescue has volunteered to give me one on one help, if I take him back, but I really don't think I can at this point, for previously stated reasons.

 

Anyone that Ghost would be rehomed with would know of his issues upfront, and would take him knowing those issues need to be given top priority.

 

Autumn

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

The first thoughts that went through my head were 1) to ask about medical conditions and 2) ask about feeding raw.

 

You really should get him checked out head to toe for any possible disease or under lying problem that may cause these issues. FIND a vet behaviourist. Maybe, just maybe meds can help?

 

And I also wonder if you've tried feeding just kibble. I have a reactive dog (shy towards strangers, aggressive to other dogs) she has been known to show slight resource gaurding that we do have under control, BUT the last thing I would do is feed my dog raw. Bordercentrics is right, it would be a very high value item to them.

 

I understand your feelings about this, it is a real shot to the ego, I've been bit myself and she broke the skin. Once I calmed down from the initial shock and frustration and looked back on the situation I realized that there were things that I simply should not have done. Someone was at our door, she was there, excited and barking, I came up behind her and brought my hand from behind around the front of her face. Very bad choice of actions on my part. I don't want you to feel bad for thinking of re-homing him, but I really urge you to take a second thought. Can you do everything possible to make sure there is nothing you can change and help remedy the issue (behaviourist, change of food, good heart to heart with vet about possible problems/medication). I really hope someone can help you find just the right person for Ghost and his issues, but I don't want you to just give up on him either.

 

Best wishes,

julie

[Liz P]

People have already given some great advice. What I would add is more serious. You can't "place" Ghost. It is highly irresponsible to give away a dog who has bitten hard enough to leave puncture wounds. It is also a liability. He is your responsibility and yours alone.

[AK dog doc]

I personally would not re-home a dog with this kind of problem. It's too big a liability. What if he does worse than a puncture at his next home? I wouldn't want to be responsible for that, and couldn't take the risk professionally. On a personal level, if I rehomed a dog who later bit someone I'd be devastated by guilt, and I'd feel like I just passed my problems along to someone else.

 

It's up to you what you do, of course, but really think about that before you make the move to put this dog and his problems in someone else's hands. And I echo the sentiments of those who advise seeing a behaviorist.

[Kate@JIm]

"The options I have now are to neuter and rehome him with a more experienced owner that is willing to work on his issues, or to put him down."

 

 

Autumn

 

 

Yes, neuter him, now. Find experienced behaviorist's and trainers in your area. Seek out Holistic veterinarian. If they don't work, find others, keep trying. Feed him in his crate. Keep working with him, he's still young.

[Journey]

With all that has been given to you and you still feel you can't bring him back home the responsible thing at this point would be to have him PTS. If you can't take him on any further, can't get help and training, it's not only your liability but your responsibility.

 

Karen

[juliepoudrier]

I personally would not re-home a dog with this kind of problem. It's too big a liability. What if he does worse than a puncture at his next home? I wouldn't want to be responsible for that, and couldn't take the risk professionally. On a personal level, if I rehomed a dog who later bit someone I'd be devastated by guilt, and I'd feel like I just passed my problems along to someone else.

I think AK Dog Doc has made a very important point, which is why I've quoted it here. I have a dog I've kept for nearly nine years because he wasn't a good candidate to rehome, nor was he so awful that I could justify euthanasia. Yes, he's bitten me on several occasions. But each time I allowed it to happen because I did something stupid (that is, something that I knew would trigger a bite) because I wasn't thinking about the dog and the situation. He's never broken skin, though. But still, I got him as a rescue with the idea of rehoming him, which idea I changed when I realized what his issues were.

 

That said, I sometimes wonder if all the extremes people go to with food guarding--feeding kibble by hand bit by bit, taking food away, etc., just doesn't reinforce in the dog's mind that food is REALLY IMPORTANT and worth guarding. I'm not saying that's the case here, but it just makes me wonder....

 

Anyway, Ghost is yours, and if he were mine and I thought he was enough of a menace (for lack of a better word) to make me fearful of handling him, then I certainly wouldn't try to place him with someone else. And that's not just because of liability issues, but also because I'd be afraid of how he would be treated (i.e., brutally) by someone else who thought they could "cure" him with methods that might be something I'd never resort to nor want any of my animals ever to experience. If I could afford to do so, I would get help NOW from a certified vet behaviorist. I would think he's probably owed that much. But if not, then I think the best choice is to put him to sleep.

 

J.

[ShoresDog]

This is a link to the website of the American College of Veterinary Behaviorist list of board-certified behaviorists. These people are all veterinarians who have further training in animal behavior. They can advise on behavior modification AND they can prescribe medications.

 

DACVB

 

I see that there is a member listed in Kirkland, Washington, and one listed in Portland, Oregon. I think you would get a lot of benefit from a consult with a behaviorist. Aggression is something they see all the time, and they won't judge you or your dog, just try to evaluate and problem-solve.

[Genie]

There's no nice way to put this, so I'll just say it. If you can't boldly work with him and accept the prospect of getting bit in the process, then its time to say goodbye and put him to sleep. Rehoming would not be fair to him, the people you place him with or anyone he might have a chance to bite in the future.

[Rachel1786]

this is a really tough situation, i would get him neutered asap, that may help with his dominance issues along with aggression. If you are committed to re-homing him it sounds like he would do best with a single man who has no other pets and no kids, someone who will dedicate all their spare time to ghost and someone who is very active, but be sure that this person knows his past and is willing to work with him, you could also see if you know any trainers that would be willing to take him and work with him. Good luck, and i hope that all works out. just a question though, how come he hasn't been neutered yet?

[stockdogranch]

Nothing really new to add, other than to just reinforce what AK Dog Doc, Julie, and others have said: If you can't/won't deal with this issue, it's not OK to pass it along and "rehome" him. It's just not the responsible thing to do.

 

I'm curious, what's the breeding on this dog? Conformation bread? Sports bred? Working bred? I think one of the earlier posts in this thread said the breeder could not take him back, for lack of room, right?

 

A

[Chesney's Girl]

That said, I sometimes wonder if all the extremes people go to with food guarding--feeding kibble by hand bit by bit, taking food away, etc., just doesn't reinforce in the dog's mind that food is REALLY IMPORTANT and worth guarding. I'm not saying that's the case here, but it just makes me wonder....

 

J.

 

Nothing else to add either, but before this was posted by Julie, I was going to comment on this too, but since I have never had an aggressive dog I couldn't change their mind about being a resource guarder, I didn't want to say it. Why not just leave him alone to eat? Don't make it a big deal that its meal time. Put the food down and let him eat. I would get annoyed if someone continually took my food away while I was eating then gave it back...

[Flamincomet]

Ok, before I address posts I thought I'd let everyone know what my final decision is.

 

Ghost will be neutered, and I will make every effort possible to place him in a new home where I feel his issues can be properly addressed and worked on. I will be completely upfront with any potential owners, and will screen them all meticulously.

 

If a new home cannot be found, I will take Ghost back, and hope that neutering him has made an improvement in his behavior. The operator of the BC rescue here has also offered to give me one on one help.

 

However, if he continues to exhibit the same aggressive behavior I will have to make the very hard decision to put him down. I am not experienced enough to properly deal with this type of behavior, and I fear that if I tried to, like I have, it would only make his behavior worse.

Also, we are renting, which means that if my landlord ever found out that Ghost has bitten me, we would either get evicted, or have to get rid of Ghost, as it's then an issue of liability.

 

 

 

Julie, we plan to do a health screen if we take him back. Finances simply won't permit doing it if we are going to rehome him anyways. It's not cost effective for us at this time, money is very tight.

Ghost has not been raw fed very long, only a couple of months actually. He was being food aggressive when he was fed kibble too.

Also, the circumstances of your bite vary greatly from mine. Ghost didn't just break the skin, he punctured, very severely, the inside of my wrist. I am a very petite and thin person, so it's not like I had any extra protection either, it went straight into the nerves, even now my hand is bent more towards the left, and if I try to move it it's very painful. It also was not an accidental bite, it was deliberate.

 

Julie (P), I agree with your points on food aggression, and if I were to take Ghost back I would try a completely different approach.

However, I disagree (Not only with you, but others also) who say I should put him down if I can't handle him. I think if someone is willing to work with him, knowing the circumstances, why should I tell them no? The only time I am fearful of handling him is around food, and around other dogs where he could react aggressively towards them initially, but then direct his aggression towards me. (This has happened in the past.)

 

Rachel1786, Ghost isn't neutered yet because I was showing him in conformation. (For experience, not to breed him.)

 

stockdogranch, I can't really classify Ghost's breeding as any of those 3, I would say he is more of a mix of all 3, though perhaps more sport bred. That is simply going off of what his siblings have excelled at, they have also done fine (Not spectacular) in conformation, and his sire has done some herding, though I'm not sure how impressive it is.

You are correct, the breeder wouldn't take Ghost back because they didn't have any room. They also didn't offer any help placing him.

 

Autumn

[juliepoudrier]

Julie (P), I agree with your points on food aggression, and if I were to take Ghost back I would try a completely different approach.

However, I disagree (Not only with you, but others also) who say I should put him down if I can't handle him. I think if someone is willing to work with him, knowing the circumstances, why should I tell them no? The only time I am fearful of handling him is around food, and around other dogs where he could react aggressively towards them initially, but then direct his aggression towards me. (This has happened in the past.)

Autumn,

For me the reason why not is because I am a controlling person I suppose and I wouldn't want to put any dog of mine in a situation that could potentially turn bad for the dog. Not all "retraining" methods are created equal, and just as I wouldn't be able to forgive myself if my problem dog ended up hurting someone else, I also wouldn't be able to forgive myself if my problem dog ended up being treated very badly or passed from home to home or worse, just dumped somewhere, because I abdicated my responsibility to him. Unless you know the new home very well, believe in their training methods, and trust them completely not to hurt the dog in any way or pass it on yet again, I just don't think rehoming is a good choice--even if you're not worried about potential liability issues that might arise should Ghost injure someone on down the line. JMO.

 

As an aside, if you have not been seen by a doctor, you should be. I fell two years ago and impaled my hand on some stobs that were on the roadside as a result of recent bush hogging. These were not large sticks, but two went into my hand. I pulled them out and cleaned the area and didn't go to the urgent care place until the next morning when I was at work, thinking that it wasn't a wound worthy of the ER. I sent the place into an uproar--the doctor's talking about me losing the use of my hand, and I was in the hospital that afternoon undergoing surgery. My point is that injuries to the hand/wrist should not be ignored--they can be much worse than they appear, and doing nothing could set you up for loss of use of that limb if infection sets in.

 

J.

[Wendy V]

That said, I sometimes wonder if all the extremes people go to with food guarding--feeding kibble by hand bit by bit, taking food away, etc., just doesn't reinforce in the dog's mind that food is REALLY IMPORTANT and worth guarding. I'm not saying that's the case here, but it just makes me wonder....

 

I'm quoting this passage again because I, too, don't understand why food guarding is such an issue with some people. Feed him in his crate and let him eat in peace. I don't think you can blame it on raw. I would look carefully at how you might have amplified this situation and provoked a bite. If you are a timid person and not an experienced trainer, then why are you putting yourself into conflict with this dog? If you are the submissive partner, then in the dog's mind, he has every right to use his teeth to claim his food.

 

He is a young dog and can be rehabilitated. Unfortunately, right now, you are afraid of him and he can sense it. Get yourself some help. I don't know if neutering will help; it may or may not. I'm not a big believer that neutering solves behavior issues in male dogs.

[Tea]

You absolutely should get to a physician. Animal bites can create a bad infection if not properly treated because of the bacteria and food particles on the teeth of the animal.

[jdarling]

Anna,

 

Here's the DAM

 

Here's the SIRE

 

Here's the LITTER

 

Here's the BREEDER

 

Jodi

[PSmitty]

He is a young dog and can be rehabilitated. Unfortunately, right now, you are afraid of him and he can sense it. Get yourself some help.

 

This was what I was thinking. I can't say what the OP should do, only she can decide that, and it sounds like she's already made up her mind. *shrug*

 

First of all, shame on that breeder. I'm not surprised, though.

 

Second of all, if it were my dog it would be this:

1) complete medical workup

2) vet behaviorist

3) all feeding done in crate, strict NILIF all other times

 

I would not pass this problem dog on to another person or rescue. If the problem remained only centered around food, that can be managed, as can his reactivity around other dogs. If I loved the dog, I would make the commitment to him, to manage his issues. If for some reason (and I can't think of one right now) I wasn't willing to make the commitment to manage him, then I would put him down.

 

Good luck.

[Lenajo]

Agree with Liz and others.

 

He's a proven biter with a serious resource guarding problem. He lives or dies your dog - *unless he is returned to the breeder*. You have no other choice in my opinion - ethically, morally, or legally.

 

I would take him, his crate, and his stuff and put him on the breeder's doorstep. Of course you can give her a choice: take him, or pay the bills for the behaviorist to get him under control. Perhaps she can use the proceeds of the litter....

 

Resource guarding is rarely just food, though people first notice it with food. In my experience a dog that will bite you about food will eventually find something else he likes just as much and nail you about that.

 

And yes, you should see a doctor about your bite. Dog bites are not as bad as cat, but they can get infected.

 

 

People have already given some great advice. What I would add is more serious. You can't "place" Ghost. It is highly irresponsible to give away a dog who has bitten hard enough to leave puncture wounds. It is also a liability. He is your responsibility and yours alone.

[Wasi]

I'm really sorry that you're going through this and have to make such a big decision.

 

I (unknowlingly) adopted a very aggressive (fearful/anxious) dog a couple of years ago. The rescue told me she was perfect - good with cats, kids, you name it. Not even the slightest bit of truth to it. By day 3, she had already torn open my hand, my arm, and my leg. We're talking major blood, stitches, the whole nine yards. Everyone I know told me to give her back. She was my first dog, and I had no idea what to do about it. But I knew what would happen - she'd end up being beaten or put down. And despite the pain she put me through, she didn't deserve that. Being single, with no kids, I knew I was her only hope.

 

I've hired behaviourists, tried different foods, different techniques, had blood work done, read everything I could get my hands on. And truth is, all she needed was for me to change my approach to her, and to respect her boundaries. I made a lot of mistakes, but I've done a lot of good too. Some things are too hard for her to deal with - so it's my job to protect her from those things (big crowds, kids). And I can tell you that sure, she still has moments and I still get nailed every now and then. But I've learned just as much from working with her then she has from me. It's been the most rewarding and educational experience I've had.

 

If you're not equipped to learn how to deal with Ghost, I wish you luck in finding him a suitable home and owner that will work with him. I know it's not easy to give him up - just be very careful if you do. Preferrably you'll know who it is that takes him so that you know he won't be abused or put in a situation where he can hurt someone.

 

Good luck.