Juno wants to chase cars!

[ShoresDog]

In the last few weeks, Juno (age 4.5 months) has started to fixate on passing cars. Yesterday, I didn't notice that the garage door stopped before it closed all the way. She darted out into the street after a car, and then another car! I caught her, no harm done, but it felt like it took an hour for my heart to stop pounding.

 

I did a search in these forums and found a couple of recent topics that have lots of advice.

 

Car Chasing

 

Now what do I do?

 

I'm trying to deal with it this way:

 

(1) I'm not walking her on the street when there are a lot of cars, just early in the morning when there are only a few. Instead, I'm walking her around the garden with a lot of clicking and treating for paying attention to me, not paying attention to car noises, heeling nicely, etc. Probably excessive positive reinforcement under most circumstances.

 

(2) When she sees a car and looks at it, I'm grabbing her face and yelling at her big time. The "come to Jesus" approach, to the best I can approximate it (and I'm not very good).

 

(3) If she ignores or looks away from a car (even with an intimidated look about her), I'm praising her.

 

Any comments are welcome. Am I being contradiictory? Juno is quite hard-headed. I once successfully had a "come to Jesus" with Daisy about barking at other dogs when on-leash. I got the timing perfectly and my fierceness and vehemence would have amazed anyone who knows me. It was quite successful. She actually looked up at me with an expression of relief, and she's stopped that behavior and seems happy about it. Juno isn't very sensitive, and it's hard for me to get the timing right, as well as getting that fiery lava flow going, but I'm doing my best.

 

Thanks for any input, positive or negative.

[Chesney's Girl]

When Chesney was about Juno's age and we were driving to Louisiana for the first time, I was out walking him at one of the hotels we were at in New Mexico and he thought it would be fun to have a go at chasing a truck that was driving towards us. He got down and started stalking it. I came unglued at him. I was telling him "Hey! What do you think you're doing" and really got in his face. I scared him, which isn't exactly what I was going for but I sure the heck got my point across that cars and trucks were NOT in his domain to be interested in other than getting out of their way. I think I had to get after Calli too while she was here once, she went bounding in front of me on leash and I turned and walking quickly in the opposite direction as her and she did some kind of flip in the air and that was that with her, Juno though might take a few attempts to deter her interest!

 

Not walking her on the street near cars in just avoidance. She needs to learn that they are not ok no matter where they are. I don't mind looking at it, I mind the more than interested look. If the "Come to Jesus" approach isn't working with Juno (knowing her it might take a while with that one) you could try conditioning her that every time she looks at a car she down stays next to you.

 

Good luck Jan!

[ShoresDog]

Thank you very much, Danielle! I think the reaction you had to Chesney's pass at a truck is the perfect one -- it makes a huge impression.

 

I agree that avoiding cars is no solution. I'm just trying to dilute the exposure until we have our little self under better control! Hence, morning walks when the cars come by occasionally rather than constantly.

 

I'm glad to hear Calli responded to your correction; it gives me hope Juno will too, even if taking the longer knothead time to do it.

[Tassie]

I have a somewhat hard-headed little wannabe car chaser - as in - I can't get enough 'come to Jesus' to impact on her. What I've found works pretty well is to almost classically condition her, so that when she hears a car approaching as we walk along the road, she turns to me - at that point, she gets treated (I started with click/treat or verbal marker/treat - now I don't always mark it.) Sometimes I treat as soon as her head turns - other times, I delay, but keep her focus on me as the car goes past, and then treat. I don't prompt the head turn - I let her make the decision, and I don't ask for a specific behavior - although if I stop, she will sit.

 

Since the problem for me is only when we're walking near a road - she doesn't get the chance to practise the chasing behavior when I'm not there - this has worked well. But I have created another problem - when we do our lunchtime walk along the road from work to the nearby park and back, she doesn't want to come in off the road - she tries to convince me that there might be another car coming really soon, and she doesn't want to miss out on her treat.

 

Kirra's mostly triggered by lone vehicles - walking on a pavement next to a busy road doesn't seem to affect her as much - then it's only the occasional noise - 4WD tires particularly.

 

My Fergus of course gets a treat as well - can't leave him out - he has no interest in cars moving along the road, so he has no idea what he's getting treated for - just one more puzzling thing in his world!

[stockdogranch]

I can't get enough 'come to Jesus' to impact on her

 

I'm thinking this might possibly be the case with Juno--she's really a tough one. As I told you, Jan, I've never had this problem, so I can only guess what might work with her. But this suggestion seems like it might be a solution for her, whether you use the look at you, or just a nice calm down (since she already knows down) and make her hold it till you release her. I think teaching her that her focus needs to be elsewhere when there is a car in the picture might be the ticket, and eventually it can become habit,

A

[Journey]

Ouch, not good and I know the scared to death feeling.

 

In cases like this, not knowing "how"bad Juno is, I tend to go overboard due to it being a life and death situation. I had a bicycle chaser, cured him on this by taking him to another neighborhood. When I saw a bunch of kids riding I parked, placed him on the flexi on a prong collar and let him rip. Yep, it was scary, scared the beejeebers out of him as well. He flipped over, had some road rash, but the end result was he never looked twice at another bike. Would his behavior have gotten worse and gone to cars had I not done this? I don't know but I also wasn't willing to find out. In the case of cars, while I might try the prong, in a set up situation, this is one case where I would think about an E Collar as well.

 

Good luck!

 

Karen

[Lizmo]

Blaze has recently started this "car chasing thing" too. Scares the beejeebers out of me to the point I won't let anyone else walk him unless I know they won't let go. And, of couse, he doesn't go off leash anywhere that isn't fenced in (which isn't good either).

 

I'm having the same problem you are. None of the normal things to get him to stop a behavior (like "Ahhh" for chewing) are working. I've got to do something though, because he MUST get through his head that chasing a car is not in any way a good thing to do. Period.

 

I like your idea, Stockdogranch.

[Lenajo]

Lizmo...

 

Blaze is little right now. You've got to come down on this like you'd just pulled him from under the wheels of the car. Scream, yell, all that stuff you wouldn't normally do. Act like your fear for him would like you to do.

 

I'd sweep his little butt up and tell him about what happens to puppies who keep doing that. I'd tell him the Grimm grown up fairy tale version (Was it Journey who threatened her car chasing pup with disembowlment LOL?) and make it stick in his little brain for all time.

 

If you do it right the first time, he probably won't need a second.

[MrSnappy]

(Was it Journey who threatened her car chasing pup with disembowlment LOL?)

 

No, that was me. And it was more like evisceration. And I described it in some gory, painstaking detail, while sitting on his chest after yanking him off his feet with the leash-and-prong.

 

Tweed don't chase cars no mo'.

 

RDM

[Lenajo]

Credit Given!

[DTrain]

My oldest dog started out life as a car chaser. The first time I saw him do it he came very close to getting run over and the driver of the car could not have cared less. This scene got every emotion in my body going almost out of control. I ran down the road after him yelling. He gave up the chase in about 1/4 mile. I grabbed him and without giving any details, he was fully aware that I was not pleased. We lived near a main road but our house was set back from the road several hundred yards. He tried it again and I went after him yelling stop. He did give up the chase and I got on him again. He tried it a couple of times again and I did the same thing. Finally he took the stop command and finally a re-call. He never chased another vehicle but he did like to chase deer. When he would take off I would yell stop and that'll do and he would take it every time. I think that sometimes getting on their case hard ( I don't mean hitting ) in dog terms makes the point and in a situation like this it is mostly worth it.

[Shoofly]

I'd be tempted to put her on a prong collar and go walking and just walk the heck out of her around cars. And i don't mean a leisurely, let's enjoy the day kind of walk. I mean big strong aggressive strides that say to the dog you better keep up or you're getting left behind and totally ignore the cars yourself, as if they don't even exist and aren't worthy of your or the dog's attention. If you're striding along and said pup lags behind or tries to glance at the cars, a quick pop on that prong with you looking straight ahead and striding on out. Pup is probably chasing because she's a little scared of the cars so show her they don't even set your radar off and lead by example. Use some big strong Cesar M strides and walk right on!

[stockdogranch]

I'd be tempted to put her on a prong collar and go walking and just walk the heck out of her around cars.

 

I like this idea, too. The prong wouldn't be a bad idea for her regular pulling-when-walking issues, either. This is a really strong-willed little pup who doesn't really give a rat's a$$ how firmly she is corrected. One of the toughest I've come across, actually,

 

A

[ShoresDog]

We're on a program of walks with a Gentle Leader head halter, so she cannot look at cars. If being required to walk nicely and not look at cars doesn't desensitize her, I'll try the prong collar next. So far, she walks very well with the head halter on. She doesn't seem to mind it, either, and she looks up at me to check in way more often. I think it reminds her that I am up there!

 

...to be continued...

[Root Beer]

We're on a program of walks with a Gentle Leader head halter, so she cannot look at cars. If being required to walk nicely and not look at cars doesn't desensitize her, I'll try the prong collar next. So far, she walks very well with the head halter on. She doesn't seem to mind it, either, and she looks up at me to check in way more often. I think it reminds her that I am up there!

 

...to be continued...

 

One thing that you might want to consider is the fact that she might not learn to never look at cars when off leash. If you think about it - cars will always be there and at some point they are probably going to catch her eye.

 

Do you know the Control Unleashed program? If not, you might want to get the book and check it out. The program isn't designed for car chasing per se, but to change the dog's response to "triggers" that cause them to lose emotional control (which would include your dog's response to cars in this case). Through Control Unleashed, you could probably condition her orient to you automatically whenever she looks at moving cars. It's a pretty amazing process and the results are often quite surprising.

 

If I had a car chaser, I would put the dog through the entire program first thing. Of course, until the training is complete, I would keep the dog on leash and secure at all times when seeing cars is even a remote option.

 

The author has an online list and will answer questions personally, but one does need to read the book (or be in the process of reading it) to ask questions. If you would like more info, please feel free to contact me via PM.

 

Another option to take into consideration as you decide on the best approach for your dog in this case.

[Shoofly]

We're on a program of walks with a Gentle Leader head halter, so she cannot look at cars. If being required to walk nicely and not look at cars doesn't desensitize her, I'll try the prong collar next. So far, she walks very well with the head halter on. She doesn't seem to mind it, either, and she looks up at me to check in way more often. I think it reminds her that I am up there!

 

...to be continued...

 

Well, keep us updated though i'd be concerned about not getting this nipped in the bud immediately especially given what

Anna says about her. I've used the confident stride, prong collar, walk the heck out of them, quick pop method on some dogs that were pretty nasty to other dogs when being walked on leash and it works wonders.

[Journey]

I'm not sure I would go the route you are, however, good luck!

 

In this case I would make the negative stick from the beginning. As Robin and Anna described, strong strides on a prong. The correction is coming first to negate the "thought" on the halti she's not having the opportunity to be "wrong" and get a "life altering" correction. Keep us posted!

[DTrain]

Further posts have reminded me of something I did with my oldest dog. It was some years ago and I had almost forgotten. He as I explained was a chaser. We lived close to Calgary at the time and we would often take him for quick walks on a short leash on 17th Avenue, in Kensington and downtown. These are all very busy areas with tons of distractions. We would walk him sharply on a short leash and correct him every time he did not focus. The only time we would stop is when a person approached who obviously wanted to meet him. He loves people and I figured this was a good thin. He quite quickly got away from the trigger distractions like cars and noise and began looking forward to nice people. We found that his attention was on us and I expect he began to think his walk had purpose. We once ran into a young man in Kensington walking a BC. He would have the dog jump up on just about anything along the way including fences etc. The dog was off leash. We spoke with him and he explained he had be doing this with his dog for a very long time and that the dog was now completely focused on his walking tasks. I thought it was a wonderful idea and had we been into agility I would have tried this.

[ShoresDog]

On the halti she's not having the opportunity to be "wrong" and get a "life altering" correction. Keep us posted!

Will do. I think you're right about not getting a chance to be wrong. Believe me, if I could have corrected her in a "life-altering" way, I would have! But I wasn't having any success getting her attention and correcting her strongly when she was wrong, and I do mean really getting in her face. This of course was after I tried a more positive approach unsuccessfully. At this point, my plan is that we will spend a "cool-off period of a few days (weeks?) walking around small but increasing numbers of cars and NOT chasing them, or even being allowed to look at them, and then we'll see if she is ready to be influenced!

 

I will read up on the Control Unleashed program, which I've not heard of.

 

Thanks for the input, all.

[Lenajo]

Control Unleashed is about creating focus during things that cause anxiety and overstimulation. Dogs, cats, agility trial activity, etc...

 

It is not appropriate imo, regarding car chasing. This is not an activity to "moderate", it is an activity to ELIMINATE

[ShoresDog]

I agree on that, for sure. There is no acceptable level of car interest. I took Juno and Daisy for a 40 minute hike on a trail at lunchtime, just a few cars at the beginning and end. During the walk, she worked her little brain so hard to stay walking near me without tugging, she has been sleeping like a rock for an hour! She is much more amenable to instructions of all sorts when she's got her high energy edge off, so if nothing else, the head halter is going to buy me that!

[Root Beer]

Control Unleashed is about creating focus during things that cause anxiety and overstimulation. Dogs, cats, agility trial activity, etc...

 

It is not appropriate imo, regarding car chasing. This is not an activity to "moderate", it is an activity to ELIMINATE

 

Actually, Control Unleashed is not just for anxiety. Overstimulation can occur in instances that do not involve anxiety.

 

If the program can work for a dog that is overstimulated by triggers such as moving dogs, cats, agility, etc., the same principles can work when cars are the trigger. Different trigger - same response. Same program can result in a dog that does not chase cars.

 

Yes, car chasing is something to eliminate. We do agree that far. But I would maintain that there multiple ways to eliminate the behavior and that it can be done without inflicting pain on the dog.

 

I know, Lenajo, that we disagree on this point - and I'm not saying what you personally should or should not do. But I think it is a very good thing for the OP to know that there are other options to take into serious consideration.

 

I would use Control Unleashed for a dog that chases cars with 100% confidence in the ability of the program to work. I've seen the results with my own dog, and he is completely trustworthy now in the unfenced area of our yard, even though cars go by on the street. This was a dog who originally had to be restrained when there were cars at a pretty good distance. He sees them now and they are completely uninteresting to him. I like those results. I like that I didn't have to cause him an ounce of pain to get those results.

[SoloRiver]

The author of Control Unleashed is a friend of mine. She is a more positive trainer than I am. I will say, having known the dog who is the main subject of the book before she got him, and witnessing her in action as a trainer, and knowing what that dog is like now, that CU WORKS. I was also lucky enough to be part of the first CU class she ever taught (early stages of CU), and I consider the methods to be an effective and entirely appropriate tool for this kind of behavior.

 

I do not think it is the only effective way to deal with the behavior, and I do think it is possible to employ corrections in this context without being inhumane to the dog, who is usually in 100% balls-out obsession mode in these cases. (I would not personally use a prong and strong leash corrections because I think doing so is potentially extremely dangerous to the dog. It IS possible for prongs to become embedded in a dog's neck. I would also never give corrections on a GL or other headcollar.) However, because I don't think it's possible to eliminate a dog's fascination with cars or other moving objects, I do think it very advisable to incorporate efforts to refocus the dog and reward that focus.

 

Jett is very interested in running children (first dog I've ever had with this problem, although it is a very "Border Collie" issue) and for that matter, running dogs. It takes what looks like a pretty strong correction to get through to her once her attention is caught, and for me this means a big "HEY!" and a leash jerk. The SECOND she turns to look at me she gets big rewards and praise. I pretty quickly got her to the point that she would see the kids and just immediately look at me (lots of praise) instead of obsessing on them (we are still working on the dog thing since we see more running kids than dogs these days) and as she gets older she is less and less obsessive about them, which I think is probably part of normal mental maturation and being able to process more things at once.

 

Running kids aren't as lethal as moving cars, but if she were loose and grabbed a kid out of excitement it could cause us all sorts of trouble, so this is a behavior I am very very interested in changing.

[ShoresDog]

I've ordered a copy of Control Unleashed and look forward to reading it. Thanks!

[Lenajo]

RB, being hit by a car is "pain" that far supersedes a few yanks on the collar and a good verbal bless out. I see value in CU, (and well, also in Cesar Milan, but that's another dogfight) but I've got enough experience to know that this is not an issue you want to fuss around with. And yes, imo CU is "fussing" in this regard. I fuss with straight sits, weight distribution on contacts, and how wide I want that pen flank...I come down on car chasers like a ton of angry bricks. It's a dangerous, unhealthy behavior that has no good in it. It's not debatable, shapeable, or acceptable - period. And I know, from experience with dozens of dogs, the *longer it is allowed to happen, regardless of the reason, the more deeply the behavior will be ingrained and the greater the chance the dog will revert at precisely the most dangerous time*.

 

I have a real problem with accepting any result as 100%. We are working with living animals here. They can't even get 100% response out of whales trapped in a tank when you control every mouthful of food they eat. Telling me something is 100% makes me doubt the method immediately.

 

Our biggest difference appears to be that I'm less sold on method, and more on results. I'll change the fromer as needed to get the results of the latter in the fastest, safest, most lasting way possible. Sometimes that's reward, and sometimes that's punishment. I'll accept your results, but you'll need to accept that the other methods here are proven as well - over many, many dogs, and over lifetimes of dogs, and those are not suffering residual levels of fear or pain, they just don't chase cars! The OP can choose what she likes, but the reality of that is here.