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Hey there. I've been reading the forums for awhile, but never had an account or posted anything. I guess that makes me a bit of a lurker. ;-) I'm posting now because I'm getting not one, but two BC puppies. I already have 2 dogs, one is a 4 y/o beagle, the other an 11 y/o black lab/BC mix. I went home for xmas and my cousin had gotten a BC that was a katrina rescue. From that moment on I decided I must have one. Somehow I'm ending up with two, but that's not the point. I've never raised a dog from a puppy up. I grew up with beagles, but my parents always did the puppy raising part. And the two I have now are both from the SPCA, so they came pretty well trained. I've been reading stuff online, various website, these forums, and ordered a book from Amazon. I have the patience and the time, so I'm not too worried about that, I just want to do it right. Big house, big yard, so space isnt an issue. Oh and there are 2.75 cats as well. Definitely going to be a full house. I'm always open to people advice/help, so feel free to offer in tips. Oh and I guess I just wanted to say hi. So, uhm, hello. Once I finally get the pups I'm sure I'll be on here with all sorts of questions. As of now the pups are 4 weeks old, I dont get them until the end of Feb. Here's some pics. There was also one that was completely white with blue eyes, but these are the ones I'm getting.

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Welcome! I have read from quite a few experienced border collie folks on this board, that getting littermates can be quite tricky and isn't usually recommended. Especially for someone new to the breed, I'd think. What makes you decide to get both puppies, I'm curious?

 

Please stay and read through the old threads here. I think you'll get quite a bit of information on choosing puppies and breeders.

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Welcome! I have read from quite a few experienced border collie folks on this board, that getting littermates can be quite tricky and isn't usually recommended. Especially for someone new to the breed, I'd think. What makes you decide to get both puppies, I'm curious?

 

Please stay and read through the old threads here. I think you'll get quite a bit of information on choosing puppies and breeders.

 

 

Thanks for the reply. Well I did do some research online about having more then one. This is one of the articles I had read

 

http://www.bcrescue.org/littermates.html

 

It seemed to me that the pros outweighed the cons. As far as what made me decide? Well i have the room. I know I want two, I just figured get both out of the way at the same time. And I'd actually love to hear people's opinions on this. Am I completely crazy?

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I know I want two, I just figured get both out of the way at the same time. And I'd actually love to hear people's opinions on this. Am I completely crazy?

 

Having more than one dog is one thing. Having littermates is another. Having a first border collie is yet another. :D No, you're not completely crazy, but uh... close. :D I think raising littermates is something I would think long and hard about - I think you're setting yourself up for failure there. You're going to not only have to deal with three TIMES the work ('cuz two puppies isn't just two times of everything, it's more like three to four!) but you've also got to deal with special issues like making sure they bond to YOU and not each other - which means seperate play times, etc.

 

If I were in your position - and I know how tough this will be to hear when you've already got your heart set on two - I would honestly raise one puppy and THEN see how you feel about another. I think you'll be grateful for that decision in the long run. :D

 

Raising your first border collie period will likely be an eye opening experience. I would like to see you live to tell about it. :rolleyes:

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Yes you are completely crazy. One BC pup is enough for many first time owners to bail out after a few months; two, even for experienced BC owners, can be a fulltime+ job.

 

I currently have one client who adopted two puppies (boxer mixes) at the same time and she is having major sibling rivalry issues. Both dogs are enrolled in a basic obedience class ($140 for the two classes, plus 2 hours in class/week, and individual practice time outside of class) and completely seperated from each other the majority of the time unless they can be closely supervised. She's an amazing owner and is doing right by her dogs, but it is an enormous responsibility and time/money investment for her.

 

I have another client with two 5mo Lab pups. He lives by himself and is having trouble with the dogs getting into a lot of trouble in the yard (they've eaten numerous objects and have almost completely detroyed on of the doors to the house); they also get incredibly upset when separated, so he's been working hard on that issue as well. One pup is in my class, the other will come into the next session most likely. Once they complete this round of classes, they will probably continue in my advanced class and/or private lessons ($70/dog/class, $50/hr for lessons). He's had labs before.

 

As far as suggestions for your situation, perhaps knowing more about you living situation might help. Do you work outside the home? How many hours/day are you gone for? Where/how will the pups be housed?

 

When is the breeder (?) releasing the pups to you? What socialization work have they done? Are the dogs up to date on health care? Have parents been screened for genetic issues and have they proven they can work? (you don't need 2 dogs with major health or temperament issues, nor should you support a breeder who is not breeding proven working dogs)

 

Do you have time to train each seperately? Are you prepared to deal with two puppies who need mental and physical exercise every day? What will you do if they develop sibling rivalry issues? Can you afford spay/neuter surgery and basic puppy healthcare for two medium sized dogs plus your current animals? Do you have money saved up for vet emergencies?

 

Sorry for all the questions, but they'll help everyone get an idea of whether the two pup thing has a chance of working and if so, how best to go about it. :rolleyes:

 

ETA: an all white pup with blue eyes raises a red flag for me - are all the pups merle or with little pigment?! A merle-merle breeding can produce "double merle" puppies with very little pigment and a TON of health issues from deafness, to visual defects, to multiple organ problems. It's a major sign of an unscrupulous breeder as well. Hope this isn't the case, but one can never be too careful with these things. If the breeding is a merle to merle cross - run for the hills!

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Am I completely crazy?

 

Yes.

 

But seriously, Paula makes a good point. If you have no previous experience with BCs, it's a lot to try to take on two pups at once, let alone two litter mates. I know that people have raised litter mates successfully, but the few that I know have had a lot of problems with the dogs not getting along as they get older. Also, BC puppies, IMO, are nothing like any other breed of puppy. The can be a lot of fun, but they will run you ragged. My bc was a holy terror as a puppy. Add to that razor sharp teeth, and you have one dangerous little dude! I love him to death and he is a great dog now, but puppy-hood was Not Easy. Just my two cents.

 

As an aside, those pups seem to have a lot of white on them and you mentioned that there was another puppy that was nearly all white. Do you know what the parents looked like? There could be some health concerns if this is a double merle breeding.

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As an aside, those pups seem to have a lot of white on them and you mentioned that there was another puppy that was nearly all white. Do you know what the parents looked like? There could be some health concerns if this is a double merle breeding.

 

Thank you for bringing that up, Mary! Good questions, indeed.

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It seemed to me that the pros outweighed the cons. As far as what made me decide? Well i have the room. I know I want two, I just figured get both out of the way at the same time. And I'd actually love to hear people's opinions on this. Am I completely crazy?

 

Well, it wouldn't be ethical to diagnose you over the Internet. :rolleyes: I don't think gettting two puppies is a good idea especially for someone new to the breed. That brief article very much downplays the negatives, I feel. I've heard the opposite that dogs from the same litter can in fact have more trouble getting along than non related dogs. My first sight of my Lhasa was of him locked in battle with his brother as the breeder pulled them apart. A few days earlier, two other puppies had gotten into a fight with one of them receiving a puncture. They were about 12 weeks old at the time.

 

Of course, it is often helpful for compatibility to have some age difference between dogs. Training two puppies and young dogs at the same time is a whole lot more work, especially since you will need to make sure to spend a good amount of one on one time with each puppy because bonding too much to each other is also a very significant risk. This is in addition to the time your other dogs will want and need from you.

 

Those would be my concerns off the top of my head. I've raised 5 puppies over the years and I have to say that Quinn was by far the most challenging for me for the first few months. I can't say what raising two coyote, um, I mean Border Collie puppies would have been like since I've never attempted to do so.

 

That said, if you're determined to take two puppies, I'm sure some people have the time, energy, know-how and patience to make it succeed. Probably some members here have done just that. Good luck.

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Yes, please, before you bring them home, make sure you are aware of the likely health problems if the pups are double merles. Have you seen both parents, and if so, are they both merles or very white around ears and eyes?

 

ETA -- looks like there were several postings at once cautioning Scotimus about merle-merle breedings. MaggieDog said it best: if the parents are both merles, run for the hills!

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Yes.

 

As an aside, those pups seem to have a lot of white on them and you mentioned that there was another puppy that was nearly all white. Do you know what the parents looked like? There could be some health concerns if this is a double merle breeding.

 

Thanks for coming on the boards for opinions! I certainly would not recommend anyone other than the most experienced dog person attempt to raise and train two littermates at the same time. And especially Border Collie litermates. And especially a first time Border Collie owner.

 

Big Red Flag to me is that a breeder would sell two pups to a first time BC owner- AND looking at the puppy pictures, I'd put my money on the probability of this is a double merle breeding, or at best a breeding that should not have taken place - merle to highly white factored (or color-headed white)! Have you met the breeder and sire/dam in person, or is this an "internet deal"?

Laurie

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Yes you are completely crazy. One BC pup is enough for many first time owners to bail out after a few months; two, even for experienced BC owners, can be a fulltime+ job.

 

I currently have one client who adopted two puppies (boxer mixes) at the same time and she is having major sibling rivalry issues. Both dogs are enrolled in a basic obedience class ($140 for the two classes, plus 2 hours in class/week, and individual practice time outside of class) and completely seperated from each other the majority of the time unless they can be closely supervised. She's an amazing owner and is doing right by her dogs, but it is an enormous responsibility and time/money investment for her.

 

I have another client with two 5mo Lab pups. He lives by himself and is having trouble with the dogs getting into a lot of trouble in the yard (they've eaten numerous objects and have almost completely detroyed on of the doors to the house); they also get incredibly upset when separated, so he's been working hard on that issue as well. One pup is in my class, the other will come into the next session most likely. Once they complete this round of classes, they will probably continue in my advanced class and/or private lessons ($70/dog/class, $50/hr for lessons). He's had labs before.

 

As far as suggestions for your situation, perhaps knowing more about you living situation might help. Do you work outside the home? How many hours/day are you gone for? Where/how will the pups be housed?

 

When is the breeder (?) releasing the pups to you? What socialization work have they done? Are the dogs up to date on health care? Have parents been screened for genetic issues and have they proven they can work? (you don't need 2 dogs with major health or temperament issues, nor should you support a breeder who is not breeding proven working dogs)

 

Do you have time to train each seperately? Are you prepared to deal with two puppies who need mental and physical exercise every day? What will you do if they develop sibling rivalry issues? Can you afford spay/neuter surgery and basic puppy healthcare for two medium sized dogs plus your current animals? Do you have money saved up for vet emergencies?

 

Sorry for all the questions, but they'll help everyone get an idea of whether the two pup thing has a chance of working and if so, how best to go about it. :rolleyes:

 

ETA: an all white pup with blue eyes raises a red flag for me - are all the pups merle or with little pigment?! A merle-merle breeding can produce "double merle" puppies with very little pigment and a TON of health issues from deafness, to visual defects, to multiple organ problems. It's a major sign of an unscrupulous breeder as well. Hope this isn't the case, but one can never be too careful with these things. If the breeding is a merle to merle cross - run for the hills!

 

So basically what I'm hearing is dont do it. Maybe I needed the fear of god put into me.

 

I'll try to answer the questions as much as possible:

 

Do you work outside the home? Yes

 

How many hours/day are you gone for? I work 4.7 miles from home. I generally go home every day for lunch as it is. I let the dogs out, get the mail, eat lunch and so on. my normal hours are mon-fri 8-5, and I come home for an hour for lunch at 12.

 

Where/how will the pups be housed? the breeders informed me that they start crate training as soon as possible, and that I should continue doing that. The other 2 dogs in the house have free reign during the day, but I figured with a puppy that obviously wouldnt be good until they are properly trained and can be trusted.

 

When is the breeder (?) releasing the pups to you? They were born Dec 30th, I can get mine on Feb 23rd. That's 9 weeks old.

 

What socialization work have they done? I know they own 4 border collies. The parents as well as 2 siblings from 2 previous litters. The wife is home all day with them, as are her kids. There were 9 puppies total in this litter. Not sure if that really answers the question.

 

Are the dogs up to date on health care? This is from one of the first emails I got from them "The puppies get their first distemper shot done by a vet at 7 weeks. And I will get the Heart Guard from the vet also. Then you will need to get a distemper shot 3 times every two weeks and give heart guard once a month. Talk to your vet, because you will have different bugs living in Virgina Beach so he might need additional pertection. I own both parents and the daughters that are on the photo site. I've had mom for four years and dad for two. Their health is great."

Have parents been screened for genetic issues and have they proven they can work? hopefully what I put above answers this. As far as the working issue, I'm not sure.

 

Do you have time to train each seperately? This is something that I havent considered, so i'm glad you asked.

Are you prepared to deal with two puppies who need mental and physical exercise every day? See above. That and the way I looked at it, it isnt like they'd be left to their, I figured the fact that there are 2 other dogs in the house would help.

 

What will you do if they develop sibling rivalry issues? I'd come back to this forum and see what people suggest.

 

Can you afford spay/neuter surgery and basic puppy healthcare for two medium sized dogs plus your current animals? yes, money isnt a huge issue for me.

 

Do you have money saved up for vet emergencies? I do.

 

 

Oh and as for the merle/merle cross that isnt the case here. The mother is a merle, the father is not. I read a lot about the issues that can happen, and I asked the current owners about that. I asked about blindness, deafness and other health issues. Out of three litters they havent run into any of these possible problems. Their first litter produced an all white dog, and I've seen the pictures of him currently with his owners who have said they have had no issues to date.

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I'm in agreement with everyone else here. Raising littermates is doable, but not for the faint of heart.

 

Most important, though, is the other thing that many have already brought up: Merle puppies with a lot of white. This is indeed a HUGE red flag about this breeding, and you certainly want to do your research on double merles (and this breeder) before bringing one, let alone two, of them home.

 

Here's a recent thread that discusses some of the issues. It's very long, but well worth reading, I think: Merle explosion.

 

J.

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This is one of the articles I had read

 

http://www.bcrescue.org/littermates.html

 

OK, I just went and read that article and I think it is complete hogwash and rather irresponsible, especially given where it is hosted.

 

JMO, of course.

 

If you are truly interested in having two dogs, why not first start with an older (by this, I just mean adult) rescue bc? You can get your feet wet with the bc breed and always add a puppy later. An older dog with a good temperament will also help to be a good role model for your puppy.

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Thanks for coming on the boards for opinions! I certainly would not recommend anyone other than the most experienced dog person attempt to raise and train two littermates at the same time. And especially Border Collie litermates. And especially a first time Border Collie owner.

 

Big Red Flag to me is that a breeder would sell two pups to a first time BC owner- AND looking at the puppy pictures, I'd put my money on the probability of this is a double merle breeding, or at best a breeding that should not have taken place - merle to highly white factored (or color-headed white)! Have you met the breeder and sire/dam in person, or is this an "internet deal"?

Laurie

 

Let it be known that the owner did try to talk me out of getting two. She said it wouldnt be easy. And I'm not sold on the idea either, otherwise I wouldnt be here asking these questions.

 

 

here are the parents: The one picture is just the mom. the other is a daughter from the first litter and the dad is the one standing.

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Are you prepared to deal with two puppies who need mental and physical exercise every day? See above. That and the way I looked at it, it isnt like they'd be left to their, I figured the fact that there are 2 other dogs in the house would help.

 

There are other things I'd like to address, but I'm supposed to be working. :rolleyes: But this point, real quick...

 

I know you don't intend to leave the pups to their own devices, but you will need to put A LOT of time and effort into spending separate times with these puppies. They will need separate training and play times and a lot of exercise. A big mistake is expecting that having two puppies, they will entertain each other and tire each other out, thus making it easier on you. What you may end up with is puppies who strongly bond to each other or the other dogs, and not you.

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Scotimus,

Even if this isn't a merle-to-merle breeding, there must be doubling up of white factoring or merle to white factor to get that much white. If you go through with getting these pups, I'd have then BAER tested for hearing and probably have an ophthalmologist check their eyes as well.

 

You didn't say you had seen the parents or any dogs from previous litters, right? So all you're going on is word of mouth, so to speak, with regards to health issues? I still think you're taking a big chance on health if you take one or both of these pups.

 

Also "their health is great" just wouldn't do it for me. I'm not an advocate of testing for every known thing for sure, but I think a breeder ought to at least have a dog checked for collie eye anomoly (CEA--there's a genetic test available or pups canbe checked at around 7 weeks by a veterinaryopthalmologist), and have the hips of both parents examined by a qualified orthopedic specialist. In the case of this litter, they should also be checking the hearing of the pups, since there is a suspected correlation between a lot of white on the head/ears and a potential for deafness (and having a white pup with no hearing issues in a previous litter is no guarantee that other white headed pups from subsequent litters won't have hearing problems).

 

ETA: From the pictures you posted it looks like they're breeding a white factored bitch to a white factored merle. That's why they're getting pups with so much white on them. I wonder if they even understand the health consequences of such breedings?

 

J.

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Ok here is the link to the photo gallery that they have. It shows the 4 border collies they have now as well as the current litter and past litters. I figure this is easier then trying to pull photos off and then uploading them here.

 

http://bcpuppy.myphotoalbum.com/albums.php...albumListPage=1

 

 

No I havent actually met the parents yet. I'm planning a drive out there next weekend.

 

At this point I think I've been sufficiently talked into just getting the one. And in all honestly I think that is really what I was looking for.

 

I'll be sure to ask about the tests as well.

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Being a fairly new BC owner myself (but I have been around them for years) and with my baby only being not quite 2 now, I can tell you it is VERY hard work. Even if you think that you have the property, the patience and the time, it's never enough, and I don't mean that to be mean, it's just the truth. I have learned that no matter what I do it will never be enough, we go on at least 2, 3 mile walks a day, we play Frisbee for 15 to 20 minutes at least 3 times a day. We take him to a crate free facility doggie day care twice a week so that he can run and play with other dogs, and we are signed up for agility and obedience. BC's need to work their brains in order to feel complete. It is not enough to just let them play together and that be it. If my Husband and I were older we would also have him in herding but we are still young enough to have not had children yet and are extremely concerned about instilling that instinct in him anymore than it already is, and believe me when I tell you, it is naturally there, I am confident that he would excel at it. And when we aren't outside walking, playing Frisbee, practing obedience, practicing agility or it is too cold, we are inside and it is NON-STOP ball. If I thought that I could get away with throwing it away and never owning another one, oh Lord would I, but the whining would drive me to hang myself, and I love my baby too much for that. I urge you to take the time to really think about the commitment that it will be, especially given that you already have 2 other dogs and a couple of cats. You will be in my prayers! :rolleyes:

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And when we aren't outside walking, playing Frisbee, practing obedience, practicing agility or it is too cold, we are inside and it is NON-STOP ball. If I thought that I could get away with throwing it away and never owning another one, oh Lord would I, but the whining would drive me to hang myself, and I love my baby too much for that.

 

Is your guy one of those Off Switch resistant BC's? I love BC energy and how game they are to do things at a second's notice. But I don't think I would survive a dog who couldn't learn how to chill. :rolleyes:

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