OBSESSED with cars

[MaryP]

Among his many issues, my new (sort of) foster dog is obsessed with cars, which makes walking him very difficult. He is a big dog, so trying to walk him on a flat collar is nearly impossible because he pulls so hard. We had been walking him on a head harness, but he pulls hard with that, too, and the nose strap was causing a sore on either side of his nose. So, now I'm not sure what to do. I don't like the thought of putting a prong collar on him because I don't think that he is necessarily being difficult, he's just obsessed to the point where it almost seems to be something that he can't control. He can spot a car from two blocks away and will go into an intense stalk and often lay down as the car gets closer. Occasionally, he'll sort of lunge at the car, but mostly he just stalks it until it goes by, then looks for the next car to stalk. The problem is, when he goes into his obsessive stalk, he will not budge, and we cannot break his focus no matter what we do. We've had to literally drag him away from the side of the road, or off the road, if we are walking in the street (these are small, neighborhood streets). It seems that he's a little better on the busier streets, almost like there are just too many cars to keep track of. Also, on the one busier road we walk on, there is a side walk, so we can be back off the street a little more.

 

Does anyone have any suggestions on how to help break, or at least tone down this dog's obsession with cars? I've had dogs that were a little too interested in cars before, but nothing like this. His focus becomes locked onto the car and we can't get him to break away from it. Also, any suggestions on what we should use to walk him, since we obviously can't continue to use the head harness.

[Samantha J]

I can't offer you any advice really, Holly had her moments wanting to chase cars but we solved that by catching her just before she lunged and saying no quite loud. Also i took toys to distract her. This thankfully was enough for her.

 

The thing we found helped and i still use is a Halti Harness with a Halti training lead. Holly is quite a strong dog and although i don't need it for the cars anymore if she sees someone she knows or is over excited she can pull. I multi use the training lead, sometimes when she walks well it is just attached to the back but then at excitable times i can link it to the front too. I have more control and it does not pull on her neck.

 

I am sure someone will come up with some better advice but i love the harness and just thought i would mention it.

 

Eta - just read your post again and perhaps the halti may not be any good for your problems but i do hope you can get him better, it must be really hard walking him like that.

[Anda]

That's a nasty habit. I remember RDM sharing her efficient way of curing foster dogs and Tweed himself of lunging at cars. It was a very direct and no-nonsense approach.

 

I don't think you should feel reserved about the prong collar in such a case, it might remind him who's in charge - and he doesn't sound like a"soft" dog who might be emotionally traumatized by the use of a prong collar. I've occasionally used the prong collar on my dog and it's a miracle how he suddenly remembers to walk perfectly on leash, with no pulling and all his focus on me.

 

I guess the key to car lunging is to catch it before he goes in the zone and say a powerful NO and not allow him to get fixated on the moving car, immediately change direction and find another distraction to keep his interest.

[MaryP]

We have halti harnesses, too, and that may be the next thing that I try. But, with dogs that really, really want to pull, I've found that the body harness isn't much of a deterrent. That's why I went straight to the head harness. I also thought that if I could control his head a little more, I could control a little better where he wants to put his focus. But, he will just pull against it with all his might to keep his focus on that car. I may try bringing a squeaky toy (he loves the Cuz). As much as he loves the cuz ball, it may not be enough of a lure to break his focus from the cars. But, it can't hurt to try.

[MaryP]

That's a nasty habit. I remember RDM sharing her efficient way of curing foster dogs and Tweed himself of lunging at cars. It was a very direct and no-nonsense approach.

 

Do you know what she did, exactly?

[Samantha J]

Do you know what she did, exactly?

 

 

Wasn't there a thread a while back where she wrote it down?

I wish i could remember what thread i saw it on.

[Anda]

I think she actually threw herself at Tweed and pinned him down to the ground at the moment he tried to bolt towards a car, and had a heart-to-heart discussion with him in that position Apparently since then Tweed hasn't even looked at a car I might be remembering it wrong.

[Samantha J]

I think she actually threw herself at Tweed and pinned him down to the ground at the moment he tried to bolt towards a car. Apparently since then Tweed hasn't even looked at a car I might be remembering it wrong.

 

 

Yes that is what i think she said she did too, i will look later and see if i can find it. Got to nip out now but it was a good answer. I saw it maybe about 3 or 4 months back i think.

[Anda]

I found this thread where Liz P talks about her experience using a prong collar with a dog obsessed with cars:

 

Shock Collars and Prongs

 

Never say never.

 

I did use a prong collar on one BC who was so insanely obsessed with cars that no other correction, reward, command, etc would stop her, even a GL didn't work. With a prong collar on she would keep walking when cars passed, but her eyes still bugged out, she foamed at the mouth and got all tense. I only used it on her long enough to teach her to drop down instantly on command, even if a car was driving past, and that lunging at cars is BAD. I think I may have actually corrected her with the collar a handful of times at the most. After that all I had to do was put the prong collar on and she was an angel.

 

That said, I have never recommended a prong collar to anyone else because in every case that I was asked for training advice it was obvious that the people did not know what they were doing and had not tried any gentle options yet. Another reason I have never recommended one is that so few dogs really need a prong collar.

[Maralynn]

I don't like the thought of putting a prong collar on him because I don't think that he is necessarily being difficult, he's just obsessed to the point where it almost seems to be something that he can't control. He can spot a car from two blocks away and will go into an intense stalk and often lay down as the car gets closer. Occasionally, he'll sort of lunge at the car, but mostly he just stalks it until it goes by, then looks for the next car to stalk. The problem is, when he goes into his obsessive stalk, he will not budge, and we cannot break his focus no matter what we do. We've had to literally drag him away from the side of the road, or off the road, if we are walking in the street

 

His obsession could turn out to be deadly for him if not corrected. This is a situation that I would strongly consider the prong collar. I used a prong on my dog to break his obsession with cats. I used the collar corrections to break his locked in "block everything else out" stare and then redirected his attention to treats/toys.

[nancy in AZ]

Kit still does this, although I have to say I'm mostly to blame because if I really spent the one on one time trying to fix it I'm sure she'd improve. Since she and Boo go for walks together (that being due to time constraints- I take Minnie separately because the old gal just can't keep up the pace anymore and trying to walk all three on leashes is mayhem) When I see a car coming if I can't get her attention off of it I stand directly in front of her face and physically block her. I've also done the pennies in a can throw with some success--timing has to be just right. But she has always reverted back to the behavior, though not quite as intensely as she started out. Interestingly, she doesn't do the lunging at cars thing when we are walking near a steady stream of traffic. It's only when the lone car passes by.

[Samantha J]

Still haven't found that other thread yet, will keep looking. If i remember right there were quite a few different views and opinions on it. Some you may get some helpful ideas with.

 

One thing i did think though after reading the pennies in a can bit that Nancy just put was Mikki training disks. Don't know if you have used them before or if they would work but i tried them with Holly and the vacuum cleaner with some success. Just another thought. She was totally obsessed by it and would attack with force, now after using those, although she still is not liking it and does bark still, i can now vacuum with her in the room not attacking it.

[Anda]

Found it!!!!

 

Herding cars...

 

 

 

Well, not to nitpick, but just as your dog was not herding the cats, nor is she "herding" cars. She is chasing cars, and it's a nasty bad habit. As with cat chasing, car chasing is one of those things I get all up in the dog's face about - maybe more so, because it's hella dangerous. A cat *may* have a chance against a dog. A dog has NO chance against a car.

 

I had a car chaser. I worked tirelessly with a clicker, a Gentle Leader, sit-and-waits ... in the end, I lost it on him. I flipped him over and sat on him and basically told him, LOUDLY, how many gross ways I would dismember him if he so much as looked at another passing car in his lifetime. When I let him up, a car went past and he glanced at, looked at me (and I probably had horns and a pitchfork, I was so upset) then he studiously studied the sky. He has not in 6 years so much as acknowledged a vehicle again.

 

I sometimes think extremely bad habits call for extreme measures. I have since broken several fosters of car chasing with a similar method, but it's all about timing. The nanosecond they start to show interest in an oncoming car I've leash corrected them right off their feet and made the 'leave-it' command about a thousand times more attractive than car chasing. I don't recommend this to everyone and I do expect to be reprimanded for being harsh on the dogs. But a few years ago while driving back from working stock, a friend of mine and I had the misfortune to witness a rottweiler get run over by a truck on the highway - we were in the process of running down the highway trying to get close to her and stop her, but we were just too far away - and dear god in heaven I have never seen anything quite so horrible in my lifetime. And I will argue that a harsh correction versus death is not as tough a competition as it may sound.

 

None of the dogs I have broken of this habit have gone on to chase cars ever again. A dog that I did not foster, who did not get the same schooling, went on to be hit and killed by a train that he was chasing. RIP Max.

 

An important thing to remember though is that just because your dog is a herding breed, does mean that whenever she engages in a bad habit she is "herding." LOTS of dogs chase cars. And cats. It has nothing to do with herding whatsoever. I caution this because too many border collie newbies excuse away their dogs' bad habits with 'herding behaviour' - this is not to suggest you're doing this, I'm just saying that it's just really inaccurate.

 

RDM

[mobcmom]

I'm sure others will disagree, but here goes.

 

My normal training and walking collars for my dogs are prong collars. You do have to be able to know how to use them propertly. I have migrated to a halti for my puppy to work on better attention and focus with her.

 

I had a foster dog who was focused on chasing cars. He was not as intense as you describe, but this might work. Consider looking at something like the illusion collar that Ceasr Milan sells. It fits arount the top and bottom of the neck and I think it would allow for more control without the rubbing the halti caused.

 

Next work on desensitization. Find someplace that is in view or earshot a of road, but far enouph away for the foster to not "lose it" with focus on the cars. Some place where he may want to look at the cars but you can still get his attention and focus on some other activity: i.e. walking, games, ball. Use a longline it you need to. Slowly work closer to the cars, to up the anty, as he gets used to the sound and follows your rules. If things are really bad you may be down to manageing the behavior vs control. It just depends on the dog.

 

With my foster, I used the prong collar, since he listened to me and I could break his focus on the cars. I have a side street that parralled a major road for a short distance. I would takes walks with him and my calm bc. As he would focus on the cars, I would make him do something else. Heel back and forth. Sit and look at me - even if I held his head for a short time. Anything to keep him busy instead of focusing on cars. We eventually got to the point where we would walk along major roads and traffic and have decent walks. One in a while he would try and dart at a car or bike, but he got a correction and we kept going. I could still never trust him to be off-leash, but on a lease he did well and we had some good walks.

 

Good luck.

[MaryP]

Thanks all. Thanks for finding that old thread, too, Anda. I haven't had a chance to read it, but will when I get home. This isn't going to be an easy dog to break, since I'm sure he's been doing this his whole life. He's only two, but still, I'm sure he's been doing it for two years. He has lots of other inappropriate behaviors that are similar (i.e., inappropriate responses to movement), but they are not life-threatening like his obsession with cars.

[Ninso]

I don't know if this would work with a dog as obsessed as you describe, but in Leslie McDevitt's Control Unleashed she talks using a game she calls "Look at That" to gain focus in similar situations. It would probably take a long time and you would have to begin very far away from the cars where he is under threshold and won't necessarily get to the point where you can't break his focus. The very second the dog looked at a passing car you would click and then give him a treat. If you wait to click until he is already in "stalk" mode it will be too late, because at that point he is tuning out everything around him. Eventually, the idea is that looking at the cars becomes "reframed" and instead of a "chase" response he will start offering quick glances at cars and then turn back to you for a treat. Leslie has has success with this "game" in many different situations. It has also worked for me with Lok in training classes. He was not as obsessed as your foster is, but anytime another dog would move, make noise, or look at him, all focus was off me and he would be at the end of the leash, body stiff leaning forward, growling at the dog. Similar to your foster it was tough to break his focus when he did this.

[Anda]

I would think by clicking and rewarding when a dog looks at a car, you'd actually be reinforcing this behaviour. If you redirect his behaviour that each time he sees a car, he's asked to sit or looks away, THEN you click and treat, maybe that would be a safer approach. Don't know....

[Samantha J]

Found it!!!!

 

Herding cars...

 

 

Oh good!!,

 

My memory is not all that good sometimes but the more i thought about it i did remember reading it. Thought there were more answers though. You read so much on here, it is hard to remember what was read where.

 

Hope it helps Mary.

[MaryP]

I agree with Anda. I am familiar with the technique that you are talking about. Actually, you don't click/treat until the dog looks back at you after looking at the object without reacting. So, the behavior that you are trying to shape is for the dog to look at you when it sees the trigger. We've actually used this method with Skittles, who can be leash reactive. But, with him, we are trying to "reprogram" him to think that looking at other dogs walking towards him on leash is OK and it means good things. He is reactive on leash only. Off leash, he loves other dogs.

 

Maybe this would work if I had 6 months or a year and a TON of patience and free time to work with him. But, I think he is too obsessed at this point and a clicker and some treats would have absolutely no value to him right now. I would never be able to get far enough away from the cars to be "below threshold" for him. Well, I take that back. I probably *could* get far enough away, but I'd have to find a great big field somewhere that borders a road. Then, I'd have to work with him probably every day for a really long time to get him to the point where he could walk along a road and not have his eyes locked onto the next car coming down the street. I just don't have that much free time or patience.

 

I'm certainly not discounting those methods for some behaviors, though. Like I said, we are doing something similar with Skittles. But, Skittles is not obsessed and I can get him to put his focus on me. I can't get Koda to even look at me when we are anywhere near where there could be cars.

[lrayburn]

MaryP,

I dealt with this same issue with an adult rescue and hopefully some of my experiences will be helpful to you. Ben came to me as a practiced car chaser. When I first got him, Ben flailed around on the end of his leash every time he saw a car. Offleash, there was nothing that could stop him from chasing a vehicle - even if it had gotten well out-of-sight. He ran compulsively and has broken the snaps of several training leads by hitting the end of them in mid-run!

 

Because he pulls, I have used both a Gentle Leader and a Premier Easywalk harness with Ben. The Gentle Leader gives me a little more head control but the Easywalk works as well.

 

I started out by teaching Ben a solid sit and lie down which, of course, went right out the door when there was a car involved. He was also less reactive on a busy street so I retaught the sit and lie down on the sidewalk of a busy street. I would go downtown and sit outside of the coffeeshop with Ben and work on getting him to lie next to me while the traffic went by and I ate a sandwich or read a book. Ben is a love-bug so every time he relaxed or looked to me for direction, I loved and snuggled on him. I also used hotdogs and cheese. Use whatever motivates your dog - food, attention, squeaky toy, tennis ball, etc.

 

Then I moved to reteaching the sit and lie down in his most reactive environment - a road with just occassional vehicles. I retaught it and practiced it frequently especially when there were no cars present so he anticipated focusing on me and "working" during all of his walks. At first, Ben learned to look to other way when I called him because he quickly learned that it predicted there was a car coming! So I had to practice stopping and calling him to me at the side of the road a lot and not just when there was a car.

 

We take our walks on a gravel road that gets very little traffic (except during tourist season) - exactly the sort of situation that triggers the worst response in Ben. So he walked on leash and when I heard a car coming, I called him to walk next to me and we moved off the side of the road. When he was good about that, I moved him to a longer training leash (20 ft) so that he was making the choice on his own and I had the leash as back up. I would move to the side of the road and call him to me and ask him to sit and then I would reward him - sometimes I had a treat, sometimes he just got snuggles and love.

 

When the car was past, I would release Ben from his sit and jog a couple of steps in the OPPOSITE direction. I would call to Ben and get him to chase me a little bit. He thought this was fun and rewarding and fulfilled that "I want to chase something" aspect of his personality. It also encouraged him to move off in a direction away from the vehicle that he had been focusing on. We practiced this for months and months until I was confident in his behavior.

 

Two years later, Ben can walk off leash on this road. If I see a car ahead of us, I either stop and call him to me or turn and walk AWAY as I call him. When he comes, I still tell him he's the greatest dog in the world and then we take our first couple of steps in the direction away from the car. Ben is much less reactive to vehicles now and he can look at a car and make the concious decision to come to me instead. That said, Ben is never allowed offleash near busier, faster roads in case he should make a mistake.

 

My proudest moment was the first time I watched him hold a downstay from a distance while a car drove past him!! It also helped that it was a friend of mine who couldn't believe that Ben was the same "crazy dog" that had compulsively chased her car when we shared a driveway.

 

I'm lucky that I have a road with such little traffic (and what traffic there is is very slow) to walk on. You may never get to the point where you are comfortable with your dog offleash, but you should be able to get him to a point where he focuses on you, is less reactive to the vehicles and your walks are more enjoyable.

 

I hope some of this helps!

Lisa

[bexie]

Molly, when she was about 4-5 months old, went in one day from terrified of the cars going by to wanting to run after them. We were in the horse pasture, which has a secondary sheep fence outside towards the road, so at least it was a little extra safe (she was also leashed) but she was really trying to go after every car that went by. The first few times we tried mild but stern correction. The second time I think we scared her half to death. We both corrected her loudly and firmly and pretty much at the top of our lungs at the same time. She got over it quickly, but hasn't tried to chase a car since.

 

 

This is a life threatening situation. I'd go for scaring him half to death so he gets the message. He'll probably require repeat treatments. Then afterwards you can work on perfecting how exactly he should be walking along the road. I'd rather have a dog scared to go near moving cars alone than one that tries to chase everything that moves.

 

 

Maybe take him to a school parking lot one weekend where you can work with one car at a distance and keep getting after him for it and scaring him. Get the driving partner to help by throwing can of coins or something out near him to emphasize the punishment. Start slow and easy and build it up. As soon as he gets it and doesn't go after the car, start praising his good behavior. Soon should lighten and you can switch to positive reinforcement for ignoring the cars. Be sure to give him some stuff he can do (walking past a parked car?) mixed in with the negatives so he doesn't hate it all. And of course don't overdo it. But if this is strongly ingrained, it's going to take a lot to get it out of him. He needs to understand what you expect of him. First, you expect him not to chase. Once he's doing that, you can get positive because he's no longer a danger.

[Ninso]

I would think by clicking and rewarding when a dog looks at a car, you'd actually be reinforcing this behaviour. If you redirect his behaviour that each time he sees a car, he's asked to sit or looks away, THEN you click and treat, maybe that would be a safer approach. Don't know....

 

Exactly! That is the point. It sounds kind of strange. But you are not reinforcing the stalk/chase reaction. You are just reinforcing a quick glance. You are actually giving the dog another way to respond. He can look at the car and doesn't have to fear a correction for doing so, and then he will look back at you for his treat. If you time the click right so that you do it before the dog goes into stalk-mode (and the dog knows what the click means) it will interrupt him before he gets too worked up. Then you can gradully increase the difficult by working closer to the trigger.

 

Actually, you don't click/treat until the dog looks back at you after looking at the object without reacting. So, the behavior that you are trying to shape is for the dog to look at you when it sees the trigger.

 

I'll have to go back and check. I am pretty sure the way Leslie McDevitt described it was that you click during the glance at the trigger. Maybe others do it differently. The end result is the same though - the dog ends up looking back at you and not reacting, whether it is for a treat or for a click and a treat. I do agree that it would probably be very difficult and could take a very long time. I thought I would mention it anyway. I agree that scaring the dog out of car chasing could be a quicker fix, but some dogs don't scare easily or get over it quickly and are un-daunted. If that didn't work, the long way may be the only way.

[G. Festerling]

All that is mentioned is great advice.

Including the correct use of the prong collar. Truth is that any method done wrong (and yes the conditioning can be done wrong too - not wrong but ineffective which could be deadly in this case) will not work.

So one thing to consider on the prong collar, you don't let the dog lay on it or pull on it. But a quick, direct, fair correction can break his focus and give you a chance to interact with him.

 

PS: I had to laugh at RDM's description - had that happen a few times myself. Not the same situation but same concept!

[MaryP]

He really doesn't chase cars, per se, though maybe he would if he were off leash. He mostly just crouches and stalks them and won't budge until they've gone by. If he is close to the edge of a road when the car goes by, he will sometimes lunge at them. I'm sure if he were off leash, he would get hit by a car. Or, more likely, the car would get hit by him. He does something similar with the vacuum cleaner. If I'm vacuuming a few feet away from him, he'll just watch it. If it gets within a foot or so, he'll attack it. I've learned that if I'm going to open the fridge, I need to tell him to sit and stay before I open the door, or he will attack the door as I open it. He is a very strange dog.

[lrayburn]

MaryP,

I just reread your last post and realized that time is a real issue for you. You should be able to reteach the behaviors on a busy street fairly quickly if you devote your walk time to this and prevent him from practicing the negative. That means, he only goes for a walk (where you will possibly see a car) when you are actively working on his behavior. Yes, your walks will be very circumspect for a week or two but that won't kill him. It took a year and a half before I trusted Ben enough to begin working offleash but we could walk nicely past a car onleash within a month or so.

Lisa