Journey Posted October 23, 2007 Report Share Posted October 23, 2007 A episode is what some would say... I have a older boy, 11 plus, who in the past 3 months has had 4 "episodes" (for lack of a better term) where he sways on his legs, for about 20 seconds max, and the past two he has collapsed. During them he is alert and aware, muscles are not taught, pupils are fine, gums fine, temp normal. The collapse is slow, hind end then front as if he was going to sit to lay down. Not a seizure but we don't know what it is. This dog has been healthy all his life, one of those that see's the vet only if I want to weigh him.... We've run a CBC/Chem panel - all normal Thyroid - waiting on it TBD - none BP - normal 147/82 (after an episode) EKG - normal When it occurs it had been after he ran for the frisbee and came back, all until today happened w/toy in mouth. Today he simply ran after a bird, ran back to me (w/o the bird) and started to go down. They last anywhere from 10 seconds to 20 seconds. When he did collapse he was up and ready/wanting to go again right away. Both my vets are scratching their heads, no not a seizure, not EIC, they spoke to Dr Taylor, not sure what it is, no racing pulse, etc..... I can "induce it" with a toy, though that made me feel awful but they wanted to "see" it. Possible next step is the Neurologist. If I had to explain it simply it would be like when you jump up quickly and everything goes black for a moment - lightheaded. Anyone with a clue as to what I am talking about or ideas? Karen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoofly Posted October 23, 2007 Report Share Posted October 23, 2007 Do a web search on dog + syncope and see if that sounds like it. I'd sure suspect it in an older dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notailabigail Posted October 23, 2007 Report Share Posted October 23, 2007 I doubt this is what it is, since you say the EKG was normal, but these episodes sound exactly like what used to happen to my terrier, Zoe, when she was in heart failure. She had always had a murmur but we didn't realize that the lack of oxygen to her brain was causing these "episodes". She was diagnosed first as having a possible brain tumour and it took a heart ultrasound to figure out that the problem was her heart. Zoe lived another 2.5 years on heart medication. I hope you get this figured out and that it's nothing serious! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoofly Posted October 23, 2007 Report Share Posted October 23, 2007 I'm copying the stuff below from a seizure web site. A friend's dog had syncope episodes when she was older. I saw it a couple of times and it sure sounds like your guy. ----------- Although syncope is not a seizure, it looks so much like a seizure it is worth mentioning on this website. The term syncope (or fainting) refers to cerebral anemia. Syncope causes collapse, which may last from seconds to minutes. Most fainting spells are due to low blood pressure or lack of oxygen delivery to the brain. Syncope is a symptom not a disease and can be caused by a wide number of disorders. During a fainting episode of syncope a dog will collapse usually on one side. The limbs may become stiff or he/she may paddle his/her legs just like with a seizure. Some things you can look for to determine whether it’s a seizure or syncope are the eyes are not dilated during syncope, heart rate may be normal and temperature is normal unlike with a seizure. Syncope may also cause the mouth or tongue to turn blue from lack of oxygen. The cause of syncope may be relatively simple such as moderate to severe anemia, causing inadequate delivery of oxygen to the brain. Severe respiratory dysfunction or airway obstruction can cause fainting because the blood oxygen level will fall. There are some problems with the involuntary nervous system that are difficult to diagnose which can lead to fainting. However, in most cases the cause of syncope is traced to cardiovascular disease (abnormal function of the heart or blood vessels). A complete medical history should be obtained and your veterinarian should complete a thorough physical examination with an emphasis on stethoscope examination of the heart and lungs. Some other tests may be necessary such as exercise test. Pre and post exercise heart rate and rhythm to determine if routine exercise incites an incident or change in heart rate. Measurement of blood pressure in order to exclude high blood pressure. An electrocardiogram, chest X-ray, pulse oximetry or test of blood oxygenation, heartworm test. Blood work including a chemistry panel, CBC, thyroid test and possibly ACTH stimulation to rule out Addison’s disease. Based on these findings other tests may need to be performed. This is one of the reasons why it’s so important to have an examination by your vet when your pet first starts having seizures, as it may not be a seizure at all but a problem with your dog’s heart. The sooner you go to the vet, the better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted October 23, 2007 Report Share Posted October 23, 2007 Did you see a cardiologist? I would spend my money there before seeing the neurologist. The neurologist may even want you to see a cardiologist first because so many neurological diseases are not diagnosed directly but instead by ruling out other causes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted October 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2007 Thanks Robin! I read the site you copied as well as this one - http://www.2ndchance.info/heart.htm Yes, it does sound like it, very much like it. What is strange is that the EKG was normal. So, we are off for another one tomorrow! Will let you know the results of the 2nd one. Thanks so much. Karen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted October 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2007 I hope you get this figured out and that it's nothing serious! Me too! Poor boy - I am afraid to let him "do" anything right now and he's not a happy camper couped up inside. Karen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoofly Posted October 23, 2007 Report Share Posted October 23, 2007 Please do let us know what you find out. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted October 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2007 Did you see a cardiologist? I would spend my money there before seeing the neurologist. The neurologist may even want you to see a cardiologist first because so many neurological diseases are not diagnosed directly but instead by ruling out other causes. No, the group we have here in town are all in one. If after they review the file they want him to see a cardiologist first they will schedule it that way. I am going to get another EKG done first, then take it from there. Taking him to UF may be a better option to, will have to talk to my regular vet about it. Karen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted October 23, 2007 Report Share Posted October 23, 2007 A friend of mine had a Kelpie with the same symptoms- they determined it to be a type of myopathy. Same symptoms as your dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted October 23, 2007 Report Share Posted October 23, 2007 No, the group we have here in town are all in one. Do you mean they are general practitioners or that they have specialists on staff that reviewed your dog's case? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted October 23, 2007 Report Share Posted October 23, 2007 A friend of mine had a Kelpie with the same symptoms- they determined it to be a type of myopathy. Same symptoms as your dog. But how old was it? My first thought with an older dog would be cardiac disease. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted October 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2007 Do you mean they are general practitioners or that they have specialists on staff that reviewed your dog's case? Neither, my regular vet will refer him to the Specialty Group we have here in town, AVS - Affiliated Veterinary Specialist. They would/will review the file before determining which specialist we see. You can't really "walk in" to this clinic, for eye exams you can otherwise you generally need to be refered in by a regular vet. Karen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted October 23, 2007 Report Share Posted October 23, 2007 I think he's 6 - he had a full cardiac work up, and test for myasthenia gravis as well. But how old was it? My first thought with an older dog would be cardiac disease. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted October 24, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2007 OK, we did the second EKG this morning. At quick glance he said it still looks normal, however, he has to do some measurements and will call me later. So, for now, I still have no answer. Thanks for all the help! Karen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted October 24, 2007 Report Share Posted October 24, 2007 What you really would need is an ecg- that will give a lot more info on the heart. OK, we did the second EKG this morning. At quick glance he said it still looks normal, however, he has to do some measurements and will call me later. So, for now, I still have no answer. Thanks for all the help! Karen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted October 24, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2007 OK, the 2nd EKG is normal. Plan B - I am waiting to hear it right now. They are talking about having him wear a "harness" that will monitor during an "episode" but I am waiting to hear what the regular vet and the specialists want or think we should do next. Karen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted October 24, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2007 Edit - double post - how does that happen! Re Edit - wasn't double - I think I am tired. Plan B - not happening, won't go with a muscle biopsy. We're waiting on thyroid results and from there we will send the file to UF and see what they think. We'll hop down there next week sometime. Karen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notailabigail Posted October 24, 2007 Report Share Posted October 24, 2007 What you really would need is an ecg- that will give a lot more info on the heart. As far as I know, an ECG and an EKG are the same thing - both are abbreviations of "electrocardiogram". One is from the german word, one is from the english word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoofly Posted October 24, 2007 Report Share Posted October 24, 2007 I wonder if a consult with Jeanne Dodds at Hemopet would be useful? She's pretty much a canine seizure expert. I know yours isn't seizure but she might still be a good one to check with, has probably seen something similar sometime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted October 24, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2007 Yes, the EKG/ECG are one in the same according to my vet. A consult with Jean Dodds is a good idea. The Thyroid went to Michigan anyhow so I will ask my vet about setting it up with the 3 of us when we get the results back from MI and can fax her the results as well. Karen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted October 24, 2007 Report Share Posted October 24, 2007 Electrocardiogram= EKG, Echocardiogram= ECG I just happen to know this because I have had both done. Ekg is done with leads, and ecg is done using ultrasonography. The former takes just a few mins, the latter a lot longer- to get views of all the valves etc. As far as I know, an ECG and an EKG are the same thing - both are abbreviations of "electrocardiogram". One is from the german word, one is from the english word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted October 24, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2007 Electrocardiogram= EKG, Echocardiogram= ECG I just happen to know this because I have had both done. Ekg is done with leads, and ecg is done using ultrasonography. The former takes just a few mins, the latter a lot longer- to get views of all the valves etc. OK, his was done with leads - EKG. I'll ask again about an ECG, sounds like it will be a UF test though or my vet might have said something. Karen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted October 25, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2007 A friend, vet tech, tossed out an idea that we should check the spleen. Something about a possible enlargement could be causing issues when running hard. Something else to check on or think about..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AK dog doc Posted October 25, 2007 Report Share Posted October 25, 2007 I'd second both investigating the spleen (as it can have episodic bleeding, which would cause weakness and collapse, though it would usually be followed by a period of tiredness or low activity and poor excersize tolerance), and the Holter monitor. I once had a patient with an AV heart block; however, she had an episode of collpase only every few days or so. The owners brought her in to check for hind end pain, actually, assuming that that was the cause. Luckily I'm a creature of habit, so I always do the full physical. Even more luckily - and this is the part that's REALLY astonishing - I just happened to have my stethoscope on her heart when it stopped beating. This dog had an arrythmia only occasionally, but when it happened her heart STOPPED. I mean "lub-dub, lub-dub, lub-dub........................ [45 seconds go by].......... DUB, lub-dub, lub-dub..." I can hardly believe to this day I was that lucky, to have been listening during the one-minute stretch in 48 to 72 hours in which her heart stopped beating. Neither echo nor an EKG would have picked it up unless the timing had been similarly lucky (this according to the cardiologist in the Group.) The advantage of Echo is that it gives you a picture of the heart in motion, so shortening fraction and ejection fractions and dynamic wall movement and so on are visible, as are valvular motion, turbulence, chamber size, wall thickness and regurgitation. It's a high-yeild and relatively non-invasive procedure (as in, often done without anesthesia), but the skill of the sonographer is a factor. Good luck with this. I hope a non-scary/easily fixed answer is found quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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