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cbm618
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Before I joined the boards I would search online for breeders websites and one breeder always stood out b/c it looked more like a restuarant menu (what with the plethora of choices and everything). I later learned after searching her kennel's name on this board that she had been banned from the ABCA for questionable breeding practices.

 

I just did a search for the site today as I was curious about wether or not she was still breeding and I found that she had changed the name of her kennel to Cherokee Rose and she was (literally) singing the praises of the IBCA. So, I'm wondering if she lied to be able to register (which I doubt, cause she still had the Wild Rose logo prominently placed on her website) or if the IBCA just didn't care...

 

Thoughts/insights into the IBCA... I know next to nothing about breed clubs and the way they work, so really the only thing I know is what I've learned from the boards --> AKC, bad; ABCA, all that is good for the BC

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Seems to me someone posted on this just a week or so ago. I think it had to do with Swa**ord still being in business, under a new name, of course. And I think this was the new registry that he or he and his cronies have started. At any rate, if it's the same one I saw referenced a week ago, I had never heard of it till then. The reputable registry is the ABCA here; the apparently now defunct AIBC was reputable in its day, I think the the NASDS is still around, but not sure what exactly its specialty is, and of course, the ISDS across the pond. But a quick search of the kennel you named doesn't bring up much, other than the person who was banned from the ABCA. Same deal, different name is all. Still presumably shady practices,

Anna

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That's really depressing. Aren't there any kind of laws to prevent puppy millers and disreputable breeders from forming their own registry?

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This is a registry of convenience similiar to the Continental Kennel Club and numerous others where you simply "pay to play." It appeared almost simultaneously with the event of the first mentioned person's being suspended from the ABCA for refusing to cooperate with an investigation into numerous complaints about breeding practices. Two and Two make Four, I think. Get kicked out, set up your own sandbox to play in. Invite your friends who play the same games.

 

Depressing yes, but not as bad as having their genetics freely mixing with those of ABCA dogs. I hope the registry will continue to act to protect the registry from wholesale dishonesty practiced by kennels like this. I also hope the public will come to realize that a responsible Border Collie breeder is one who selects breeding stock based on working ability, not color or random combinations of "Big Name" dogs in the pedigree.

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It seems that anyone should be able to start a registry of purebred dogs according to our United States laws. If they are verifying parentage, I do not see what the problem is. Why is it that those of you who have nothing better to do than sit on these boards think that the American Border Collie Association should be the only registry for this breed? It seems to me that a little competition never hurt anyone.

 

Here is the Animal Pedigree Act of Canada FYI.

 

The Act's principal purposes are breed improvement and protection of persons who raise and purchase animals. For these purposes, the Act provides for the establishment of animal pedigree associations that are authorized to register and identify animals that have significant value.

 

National breed associations are incorporated under the Animal Pedigree Act who agree to take on the responsibility to establish a registry and represent breeders throughout Canada. Breed associations maintain pedigree records and issue certificates of registration as their primary responsibility.

 

Application to incorporate a breed association may be made by five or more persons who are at least 18 years of age and Canadian citizens or permanent residents. Only one breed association may be incorporated in respect of each distinct breed, or evolving breed.

 

For more information on this act, please contact the Animal Industry Division.

 

the only registry for this breed? It seems to me that a little competition never hurt anyone.

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I think you may have missed the point. The OP didn't ask if the ABCA should be the only BC registry. They asked about the reputability of IBCA as a registry. If they are considering getting a puppy that is registered with that registry, that seems like a perfectly reasonable thing to wonder about.

 

To put it in other terms: Let's say you need to have your appendix out. You might like to know whether your doctor is in good standing with organizations like the AMA, or maybe the American College of Internal Medicine and Surgery, or something of that nature. If your MD has had AMA membership revoked, or is, instead of being AMA accredited, a member of Mother Specter's School of Auto Repair and All-Night Dentistry, you might think twice. Let's say you needed an attorney. Would you want to know if the one you picked was a member of the American Bar Association? Would you feel differently if they had been evicted from the ABA and had decided to set up their own bar association instead?

 

I don't think anyone said there can't be other registries. However, I do think that a buyer has a right to know if their breeder is acting in good faith, if their dogs are in fact what they represent them to be, and if the registry with whom they register their dogs is reputable. The buyer also has the right to support whichever registry and practices they consider best - and if they're not sure of the motives and intent of a given registry, by all means they should ask about that before they support it, and before they commit themselves to a dog which may or may not be what they were intending to purchase.

 

As to why all registries are not created equal, please read the sticky at the beginning of the section. As for having nothing better to do...? For those of us who care about the BC as a breed, as well as our own individual BCs, being on these boards doesn't fall into the category of having nothing better to do. Even less so for those of us who rely on the BC for our livelihood. It falls into the category of being a priority.

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I'd like to reply, primarily to cbm618.

 

Your comments regarding Cherokee Rose/Wild Rose Border Collies are particulary offensive to me.

 

Are you speaking out of experience?? Out of fact??

 

Clearly, you are doing neither. You see... I happen to have one of this breeders dogs, so I have first hand experience with not only their genetics, but their love and concern of each and every one of this breeders dogs.

 

Several years ago, I also was checking out different BC breeders, and she had exactly what I was looking for, genetically. I didn't care what color the dog was, but rather had done my homework, and knew the gene pool I wanted. SHE didn't know what I wanted, but I did. Even distance didn't concern me, as I'm in California, and she on the other side of the US. I sent her the funds for the pup, the shipping, and the crate. As soon as the pup was old enough to ship, she let us know and shipped the pup.

 

We have had this totally awesome dog ever since. The pup fit right into the household, and couldn't be a more wonderful member of our family. She took top prizes in herding trials, and takes care of my children like they're her own. I couldn't come up with a complaint if I had to.

 

Additionally..... a couple of years after we purchased our pup, she called wondering about a pup she'd sold to some other people in our general area. She had become stressed after reports from others that the pup was unhappy and stressed in the buyers home. I called the purchaser's asked about the pup, and was informed that they'd also purchased BC pups from other breeders, as well as this pup. They were clearly "over-dogged". I asked the breeder what she wanted to do, and spoke with the buyers to see what THEY wanted to do. It was mutually agreed upon that the buyers didn't want this dog. So, the breeder immediately wired me the funds to purchase the dog back. I made the transaction and kept the pup until arrangements could be made to return him to her.

 

Honestly, I don't know of any "puppy millers" who would take the care and concern to this level. Do you???

 

In short, I think that YOU need to do your homework, and before you go online slandering people, and speaking as though you have first-hand knowledge (when you do not), think about your words. Ask yourself how your words will affect others, and whether it's worth the fallout of your statements.

 

If anyone needs to further clarify these statements of fact, please feel free to contact me directly, at BeauRose@yahoo.com.

 

Sincerely,

Susan Galvan

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I also have a puppy from this breeder. I'm ashamed to say I got Carlie before I knew the warning signs of puppy mills. The breeder sold me the pup with no knowledge about who I was or what I was planning to do with her. She is my heart's dog. She is a great little sheep dog, nice agility dog, great temperament, bombproof girl. Her hips also suck, she had hip dysplasia and arthritis at 2 years of age. She also has a tendency to OCD behaviors I have to keep on top of. I e-mailed the breeder to tell her about Carlie's hips and she said that she would send me another puppy to make up for her bad hips. I declined and got my next dog from an open handler.

 

Is Carlie great? Yes! Do I think that's a result of careful breeding and selection for the traits that make border collies special? No! I think I got lucky. However, every day I see her gimp around after laying down too long, or start to limp after 2 days of agility showing, I curse her breeder. No one should have to watch a 2 year old dog battle arthritis. She is now 7 and she won't have the full long life she should have because her hips are so bad. After that one e-mail offering me another puppy I've never heard from her breeder. No questions of how she is doing, etc. I've seen her sister once, same bad hips. I've seen other dogs from the same lines, I got lucky.

 

That is my first hand experience with this breeder. An uncaring puppy mill who will sell a puppy to anyone, not worried or surprised when the puppies she produces turn out to have genetic problems (hip dysplasia) but is more than willing to give that person yet another puppy to watch break down. Whenever someone asks me where she came from cause she is so cool and pretty I tell them I don't know, she is a puppy mill puppy. I don't want anyone to pay more money and support this breeder.

 

Olivia

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This "breeder" is a member of the boards.

 

Katelynn

 

 

Is she now? Strange, she hasn't denied anything publicly.

 

Susan, your situation is to be applauded. You are the "one in a million"......I've had dealings with "wildrose" as a matter of fact several us dealt with local authorities here in the SE US in getting her out of business, no it obviously didn't work, just made her move.

 

Meeting buyers in gas station parking lots, having friends of hers deliver pups, hiding dogs, trying to make sure she couldn't be found among other things.

 

Karen

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BeauRose,

The *facts* are, IIRC--maybe Eileen can clarify, that the breeder in question was denied membership and registration priveleges with the ABCA because of suspected questionable breeding practices and the refusal to allow ABCA to investigate those practices. Swafford was removed from the ABCA for falsifying pedigrees. If questionable breeding practices are of concern to the registry (ABCA), then they should also be of concern to any potential puppy buyer. And Joette, creating a new registry because you have been removed from the main registry for questionable breeding practices is *not* a valid reason for creating that new registry IMO. It's certainly not the same as breaking away, say, because you feel strongly that there should be a working requirement for any dog that is registered. That doesn't mean someone (or several someones) can't create a new registry after being kicked out f the "old" one, but to be fair to potential puppy buyers, those buyers should know *why* the new registry was created so they can make an informed decision about buying a pup so registered. BeauRose, you state that you wanted specific genetics, but when a breeder refuses to allow the registry to follow up on concerns and then allies herself with someone known to have falsified pedigrees, well, it's only logical that her breeding practices will be called into question as well. When I buy a pup I rely on the integrity of the breeder to be supplying the correct pedigree so that I *know* I am getting the genetics I think I'm getting. No one can know for sure that the papers they get with their pup are correct, but I think one would have a better chance getting correct papers (the genetics one wants) from a breeder one knows or at least from breeders who haven't given the main registry reason to be suspicious.

 

J.

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Hi Girls!

 

It's an unfortunate fact, that bad hips take generations to raise the ugly heads. This is not a breeding fault exclusive to Wild Rose. This is a fact in MANY breeds.

 

My friends in Kentucky took YEARS to fund the perfect male Golden Retreiver. They looked at MANY breeders dogs and gene pools, until they finally found "perfect" hips. They paid a VERY high price for this dog. Then, they started the search for a female Golden for him. They finally found her, and what did they end up with?? Litters of bad hips.

 

My friend with a Brazilian Mastiff takes him to a speciality large breed vet who feels that diet and too early of spaying/neutering have more to do with the bad hip situation than people think. He won't even spay or neuter before 3 years of age.

 

============

 

OCD behaviors are very apparent in ANY herding breed. When the kids are inside, and Rose gets bored, she trots around the property catching flies. Kelpies, Aussies, Shepards, BCs.... they're all about OCD!! That's what they do!

 

============

 

Not wanting people on your property?? My friend in Morgan Hill let a friend of a friend onto his ranch to view his litter of BCs. They weren't ready to go home yet, but when they were he went out to feed and clean early one morning, and all the pups were gone. Stolen. This is an another unfortunate situation with nice pups.

 

I don't tell just anyone where I live. I certainly wouldn't invite someone who telephoned me over. Would you? If you didn't know who you were speaking with, and someone just called you, would you really invite them to your home??? If you were a single woman living out in the country would you?? I AM a single woman with children, dogs, cats, chickens, and horses, and I know I wouldn't.

 

Opting to meet someone in a public place gives the seller the option whether or not to sell the animal to the people. Having them at your front door........

 

============

 

Just things to think about before verbally attacking someone you know nothing about. I've never met WildRose, since we live on opposite ends of the nation, but we are friends via the internet. I know of her deep love and affection for each and ever pup she breeds. Her concern for the home each animal she breeds, is genuine.

 

Please... think before you speak. Put your feet in her shoes, before going on with unjust criticisms.

 

Thank you,

Susan

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I've never met WildRose, since we live on opposite ends of the nation, but we are friends via the internet.

 

IOW, you know only what she tells you. Please consider that the facts may be very different from what she chooses to tell you.

 

BTW, to the best of my knowledge "WildRose" is not a member of the boards.

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Thank you, Eileen! I appreciate your concern.

 

I've had livestock, and pets all my life, so am well versed in buying and selling of animals.

 

Please consider all sides, though okay? I've never heard of puppy-mill breeders being concerned about where and to whom their pups are placed. WildRose is absolutely concerned where all her pups go.

 

My friend who had the whole litter stolen was devastated by his loss, but was oddly appreciative that they took the bitch along with her pups. At least the pups didn't have to experience the premature loss of their mom.

 

Thanks again!

Susan

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A client of mine went to the WildRose kennels when they were in Georgia. They were horrified at the care and condition of the dogs, but thankfully managed to get out of there without buying a pup to justify more breeding.

 

The breeder of WildRose, Ms Harrison, was suspended from ABCA - known fact. I also know several rescue groups that have pursued her for cruelty and neglect - and she keeps moving to a new state an starting over. There will always be someone to buy a pup off the internet.

 

You may think you "know" her, but until you've talked to people who have actually seen her in action you have no idea.

 

and if you got a good dog - hoorah for you. If 100% of her dogs were bad perhaps we could people to stop rewarding her for what she does, and the results to the other 90%..

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My friends in Kentucky took YEARS to fund the perfect male Golden Retreiver. They looked at MANY breeders dogs and gene pools, until they finally found "perfect" hips. They paid a VERY high price for this dog. Then, they started the search for a female Golden for him. They finally found her, and what did they end up with?? Litters of bad hips.

 

Litters? Hopefully that is a typo and they didn't repeat the breeding?

 

My friend with a Brazilian Mastiff takes him to a speciality large breed vet who feels that diet and too early of spaying/neutering have more to do with the bad hip situation than people think. He won't even spay or neuter before 3 years of age.

 

It's a complicated issue but from what I understand genetics is definitely a significant part of it.

 

OCD behaviors are very apparent in ANY herding breed. When the kids are inside, and Rose gets bored, she trots around the property catching flies. Kelpies, Aussies, Shepards, BCs.... they're all about OCD!! That's what they do!

 

True OCD behaviors are a problem to be addressed and hopefully staved off, not something to be expected and accepted in a herding breed. The only things Quinn is OCD about are his fetch toys and sheep (not in that order). He doesn't have free access to either so his "OCD behaviors" aren't an issue. And I see that as intensity and drive, not OCD.

 

I don't tell just anyone where I live. I certainly wouldn't invite someone who telephoned me over. Would you? If you didn't know who you were speaking with, and someone just called you, would you really invite them to your home???

 

No, but then I'm not selling puppies where it is important to see the environment into which they are born, as well as what the breeder's other dogs are like. That is pretty much an accepted practice for reputable breeders from what I understand. I'm not saying potential buyers have the right to go through your entire house, but they sure should be able to come onto your property, see your dogs and get an idea of where the puppies have been living.

 

Opting to meet someone in a public place gives the seller the option whether or not to sell the animal to the people. Having them at your front door........

 

Huh? Because someone comes to your house, you're obligated to sell a puppy to them? I'm not following.

 

Just things to think about before verbally attacking someone you know nothing about.

 

Speaking out against questionable breeding practices isn't attacking.

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Returning to the OP's original question, I think the fact that the IBCA does not disclose any information about its ownership or management says all that needs to be said about its stature as a registry. As a corporation ("International Border Collie Association, Inc." according to its website), it is legally obligated to have officers and directors. Who are they? Its website certainly isn't telling. It doesn't mention the name of a single human being connected with its founding, ownership or management. It apparently sprang from nowhere in July 2006. That is certainly different from any other registry I've ever seen or heard tell of.

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I'd like to add that I also have a very good friend who has seen WildRose's newest facility (unless she's moved again in the last 6 months or so) as well as that of one of her nearby associates. I don't know what BeauRose's definition of a puppy mill is, but ISTM that if you have 100 or so dogs of one breed and you are a breeder that qualifies for puppy mill status. The condition of the kennels at one of WildRose's associates was so atrocious that my friend called the local authorities to report it (the friend didn't get a close inspection of WildRose's kennel but could see enough to count dogs). BeauRose, I'm sure you mean well in defending this breeder and you got lucky and got a healthy pup despite going about it without bothering to check the breeder or her facility, but I think you are misguided in continuing to defend a breeder with practices considered indefensible by folks who have *witnessed* her facility and practices (and the results--the puppies--of those practices). When you have actually met the breeder in person and have seen her kennels, etc., then perhaps you would be justified in telling others that they should stick to the facts. The *fact* is that you really know absolutely nothing about this breeder except what she's chosen to tell you and what you've chosen to believe. Not facts.

 

Saying that it's normal to meet potential buyers in gas stations, etc., because of fear of dog theft is disingenuous at best. All the tenets of smart puppy buying state that it's important to see *where* and under what conditions pups are reared. A breeder that won't let me visit certainly isn't going to get my business. But then again, I wouldn't buy a pup from a breeder I didn't know or who didn't come highly recommended by someone I trusted. You are advocating trusting someone solely on the basis of electronic communication, and I think we all know how safe that is (just ask all the victims of scams).

 

J.

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When I met Ms. Harrison to pick up Carlie she had me meet her at a friend's house instead of her own. If she is truly concerned with people finding out where she lives, why is she not concerned for her friend? She met me there with Carlie, her sister and a younger (5 weeks?) puppy from a totally different litter. The pups were clean but that could have been fixed with a bath right before they came. She had no spay/neuter contract, health guarantee, OFA or CERF certifications, etc. All she had were cute puppies. Of course I fell in love with Carlie and brought her home and I've never regretted it but she has her problems, problems I believe stemmed from bad breeding practices. Ms. Harrison was unconcerned with who I was or where Carlie was going and all she wanted to know is if I wanted the puppy and had the money.

 

My pup from open herding parents has drive out the wazoo but he is more than capable of chilling out in the house and not freaking out over something he wants. I played with a laser pointer once with Carlie...she spent the next three weeks sitting in front of the dresser where I put it away staring at the drawer. I then spent the next several months correcting her attempt to chase reflections, flashlights, etc. She got over it but she is always on the look out for something to obsess over. She is even unhealthy in her obsession in sheep. Griffin will work, quit when told, and lay under a tree; Carlie will work, quit when told (that took a long time to teach) and then obsessively run the fence line. If you tie her up she fights the tie, quivers, shakes and cries. In any other situation she will tie just fine.

 

It's nice that you want to defend someone but please know that many people have met her in person and seen her facilities. I think that their first hand experience should over ride what you have been told over the internet. It's hard to admit that you've been lied to and fell for a puppy mill line, believe me I know just how hard, but please be realistic. You love your dog, great; do the best you can by her and when it is time to get a new pup please support good reputable breeders.

 

Olivia

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Ms. Galvan,

No, I have no experience with the breeder. No, I never plan on having an experience with the breeder. I posted about IBCA. I was curious as to why a registry (which I'd never heard of) would allow someone who had been suspended from the ABCA (which is public info and posted on the ABCA website) to register with them. I thought it odd that someone unwilling to cooperate with one registry would be allowed to join another. That was why I wanted to know, to satisfy my own curiosity.

 

I naively assume that people are honest and honorable, doing what is right for all and not just themselves. I am always shocked when I find out otherwise. I can't believe, after having read the stories posted about this particular breeder, that the law has been unable to stop her. It's horrifying, depressing, and infuriating at the same time. However, there could be some good news. Correct me if I'm wrong but don't the majority of states make animal cruelty and neglect a federal offense now? Maybe some day this particular fact will catch up with these puppy millers. One can only hope.

 

Christi

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Let's just respect each other's differences of opinion. Maryanne doesn't deserve this slander, and neither do other breeders who don't follow our rules. It's all good and fine to say I think this way, so you must do as I think. But, that's not how the world goes round. It doesn't matter if it's sheep, cattle, horses, dogs, homes, or vehicles. It's a "Buyer Beware" world out there. It's not the way we like it, but it's the way it is.

 

If you are stuck on dog breeders, you wouldn't even believe the cat, goat, or pig world. I'm not the one who brought up the OCD issue, someone else did. I wouldn't change anything about our Rose. Not even her highly developed fly-catching skill.

 

When each of us is elected Ruler of the Universe, then we can tell everyone how to do things. But, until then I think it's really wrong to get on this or any other board, and slander MY friends or anyone else.

 

Yes, we absolutely LOVE our funny little Rosita Bonita dog, and believe you me.... I won't hesitate for a moment, contacting Maryanne when we're ready for another BC. The only reason I'm not looking for a BC at this moment, is that I just had to put my wonderful old faithful BC/shadow to sleep a month ago. My heart is way too raw to even think about it at this time.

 

But, when I'm ready, I will contact Maryannie. You do things your way, I'll do things my way. Most of all, I'll respect each of you enough to respect your choices and decisions, and not slander your friends on a public board. If you do have something to say, drop me a line at the address I listed earlier.

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