Ms.DaisyDuke Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 Hoping everything went all right....? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyer Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 Me too. I'm feeling a little concerned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pansmom Posted May 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 Hoping everything went all right....? Yes, I've been waiting to post until I had time to explain everything but I LEARNED SO MUCH while I was there and already Pan's leash problems are solved. Apparently she was NERVOUS during leash put-on sessions and Dr. Haug showed me how to read her and some desensitization techniques (also involving me moving really slow) to make her calm and now I can put it on and take her for a walk no problem. Her problem is definitely fear aggression, not dominance aggression, according to Dr. Haug, and the other problem she thinks is the spaying simulated whelping and she developed something similar to maternal aggression, which has been somewhat permanated by our reinforcing reactions. ANYONE THINKING OF SPAYING YOUR DOG, MAKE THE APPOINTMENT NOT SOONER THAN THREE MONTHS AFTER THE DOG GOES OUT OF ESTRUS. Anyway, will post more later about it but we're going to do completely nonconfrontational methods now, not even telling her "no" anymore; only ignoring and withdrawing attention. Even when she barks, we're going to ignore her, no more even "hush it's nothing" because the negative reinforcement and time outs while better than force-based methods still have the potential to reinforce (Dr. Haug talked about chaining being an obvious possibility because of Pan's intelligence). So in order to help her unlearn the barking and growling nonsense we have to completely ignore it. The downside is to use these methods and be safe she has to be on a long tether and/or gentle leader/ long-wear muzzle at all times while in the house. Especially because today is Pan's first day of Prozac (ok fluoxetine, $4 a month at Wal Mart), and these meds can sometimes decrease bite inhibition and cause weird side effects, though with Pan's temperament profile there is potential that it could do a lot of good. Basically, if it is possible for dogs to be mentally ill, Pan is. She acted mortally afraid and aggressive over a stuffed animal. I think it was at that point that Dr. Haug said, "so I guess this is her default reaction to things she doesn't understand" and got out the videocamera... QUICKLY: a couple lessons learned--It CAN make a difference taking a dog from its mother so early. According to Dr. Haug, dogs learn a lot of bite inhibition after 5 weeks, and so the only bite inhibition she learned is from us. Also she didn't learn socialization for other dogs which for many dogs wouldn't be a problem but because she is temperamentlally so nervous, already (probably something wrong with her: something about neurotransmitters, serotonin reuptake), it really could've had a huge effect on her. Although already she may have had a strike against her being the puppy off by herself at only 5 weeks old, Dr. Haug said that may have been - unless it was an accident, just getting cut off from the rest of the pack or not moved by the others - evidence that there was something wrong with her if she was actually left behind by the mother or other puppies. AND FINALLY: It really sucks not being able to tell her "hush it's nothing." Lots of neighborhood dogs bark in a kind of crazed chorus this time of night and Pan wants to join in, though hers is frenzied, but she's tethered (on a thing in the wall and a 20 ft training leash) and I'm right out of reach of her typing this and so I'm just completely ignoring her and what started as crazy frenzied barking has now become like a RUFF!!!! rawwwwwwwwwrrr rrrr rrr ... silence .... RUFFFF!!!!! rawurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr urrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. Some weird cross between grovering and barking and growling. I think she is somewhat calmed by my total ignoring of her and the outside barking. Poor thing. She's sitting at the edge of the lead beneath me on the couch just listening intently to the barking. She's not that scared, her ears are only half back. Face your fears, sweetie, face your fears. (A moment ago she was lazing on her back... she's back and forth between relaxing and the rawurrrrrrrrrr urrrrrrrrrr business.) More tomorrow! Husband going out of town again in two days and have promised to spend tonight with him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caroline Reichard Posted May 13, 2009 Report Share Posted May 13, 2009 .... we're going to do completely nonconfrontational methods now, not even telling her "no" anymore; only ignoring and withdrawing attention. Even when she barks, we're going to ignore her, no more even "hush it's nothing" because the negative reinforcement and time outs while better than force-based methods still have the potential to reinforce (Dr. Haug talked about chaining being an obvious possibility because of Pan's intelligence). The downside is to be safe she has to be on a long tether and/or gentle leader/ long-wear muzzle at all times while in the house. Especially because today is Pan's first day of Prozac (ok fluoxetine, $4 a month at Wal Mart), and these meds can sometimes decrease bite inhibition and cause weird side effects, though with Pan's temperament profile there is potential that it could do a lot of good. Basically, if it is possible for dogs to be mentally ill, Pan is. She acted mortally afraid and aggressive over a stuffed animal. I think it was at that point that Dr. Haug got out the videocamera... If you don't keep one already, start a training/ behavior journal. Today. You are an academic and so know the value of a written record. It will help you keep track of everything if / when your brain is melting. Good luck w/ your plan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyer Posted May 13, 2009 Report Share Posted May 13, 2009 Thank goodness you took her. Not at all a surprising diagnosis or treatment plan. Interesting about the hormonal fallout from the untimely spaying. Keep on keeping on. You're doing great. Flyer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caerus Posted May 13, 2009 Report Share Posted May 13, 2009 Glad to hear the appointment was helpful! Good luck, and keep us updated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urge to herd Posted May 13, 2009 Report Share Posted May 13, 2009 Great news! Sounds like Dr. Haug was a big help. I second the journal keeping recommendation, it will be a valuable resource for you. Phew, I was on pins and needles, checking the board every hour or so. DH probably thinks I've got an internet sweetie that I'm hiding from him . . . Ruth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted May 13, 2009 Report Share Posted May 13, 2009 QUICKLY: a couple lessons learned--It CAN make a difference taking a dog from its mother so early. According to Dr. Haug, dogs learn a lot of bite inhibition after 5 weeks, and so the only bite inhibition she learned is from us. Also she didn't learn socialization for other dogs which for many dogs wouldn't be a problem but because she is temperamentlally so nervous, already (probably something wrong with her: something about neurotransmitters, serotonin reuptake), it really could've had a huge effect on her. Although already she may have had a strike against her being the puppy off by herself at only 5 weeks old, Dr. Haug said that may have been - unless it was an accident, just getting cut off from the rest of the pack or not moved by the others - evidence that there was something wrong with her if she was actually left behind by the mother or other puppies. That's extremely interesting. Not to go off on a tangent, but my youngest rescue was taken from his litter at 5 or 6 weeks (by his original owners) and I've often wondered if there could be a link between that and his noise phobia/general anxiety issues. Granted, there is no way to know for certain, and what matters is helping him now. Still, I'm the type who does wonder, so I find this very interesting. I definitely had to teach him to keep those teeth in his mouth even though he was 10 months old when we got him. He was never a biter, but he was definitely excessively grabby when it came to taking toys, and my dogs had to teach him how to use his teeth appropriately in dog-dog play. He definitely learned even though he was well past the normal window where dogs learn such things. I'm glad it went well and I hope that the medication, and Dr. Haug's recommendations, help Pan learn to find the world a much more comfortable place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ms.DaisyDuke Posted May 13, 2009 Report Share Posted May 13, 2009 I am so glad to hear the appointment was positive and you learned a lot. That is GREAT! I am not surprised at all by the course of action you are taking. It should help and I hope the prozac does it's job. I also highly recommend keeping a journal, it will be extremely helpful. I've been urged to keep a journal by trainers in the past, especially when we first started out taking reactive dog classes. It was great because I had a reference to look back on if there was anything I needed specific help with and it also helped me notice small improvements and when to expect regression episodes to happen. Completely useful in my opinion!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiacha7j Posted May 13, 2009 Report Share Posted May 13, 2009 Exciting news! Thanks for the updates. As others have said, keep up the great work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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